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#7911661 - 10/13/14 05:52 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Design]
dirtyS13drifta
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 Originally Posted By: Design
 Originally Posted By: dirtyS13drifta

Oh and fwiw, I've dropped weights from my schedule due to time constraints.


Maybe consider working in some basics (i.e. deadlifts and back squats) to maintain core. I've found it's been helping tremendously in my recovery.


I was actually finding those tended to aggravate my plantar. Though I was doing about 1.25bw on squats.

I was debating about lifting tonight just feel better since I'm off my feet for at least a bit longer.

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#7911672 - 10/13/14 05:57 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Design]
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Also, I think you mentioned visiting with a PT about the issue, yes? If not, that's probably the first thing I'd suggest.
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#7911691 - 10/13/14 06:09 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Design]
dirtyS13drifta
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Nah, seen a few GPs but this was all years ago. I'm HMO, so I need start with GP.
Not like they'll do much diagnostics, but at least have them confirm diagnosis.

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#7911773 - 10/13/14 07:28 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: ]
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HMO? Sounds like you might just want to rig up a home amputation kit and save the office visit(s) \:D
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#7912585 - 10/14/14 11:27 AM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: stickaz_old]
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So I ran my favorite race on saturday, my 3rd time doing it.
Its a 50 k that starts in the santa cruz mountains and ends down by the ocean.
I ran it pretty smart I felt and was able to get a PR on a pretty tough loop that you do in the middle of the course.
The last 6 miles I was battling some really bad side stitches so that slowed me down a bit, but overall not bad.
Ended up finishing in 4:33 in 9th place out of 160 or so.
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#7914580 - 10/15/14 11:21 AM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Ampsman in Extremis]
Design Offline
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Jebus, that 20 minutes slower than my best marathon time.

Nicely done dude.
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#7916473 - 10/16/14 12:12 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Design]
Design Offline
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Finally back in the sub-8's. Yesterday I cranked out a brief 6 miles @ 47:38 before I had to go back and pick up the kids. Legs and back feel strong today.

Going to probably do 10-12 miles this Saturday, another speed session, then probably ease back in preparation for next week's 10 miler.
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#7921617 - 10/19/14 10:47 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Design]
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Keeping this thread alive. Cranked out 11.2 miles @ 94:48. I'll provide an update once I finish HB next Sunday. Woot!
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#7922290 - 10/20/14 12:52 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Design]
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sick \:D
I had a mini-mileage breakthrough myself this week. Although my LSR (long/slow run] yesterday SUCKED [was getting hot, I wasnt feeling it, had to stop 2x], I did ~17 miles last week and am NOT particularly sore this week and getting out of bed in the morning wasnt really terribly sore. [normally I'd hobble to the bathroom /old]
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#7922371 - 10/20/14 01:33 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: stickaz_old]
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Last week was a step back week

Tuesday - intervals (I think it was 3x1600)
Thursday - three mile tempo run
Saturday - 10 mile long run at 9:05 or so per mile

Am scheduled to do 10 x 400 intervals tomorrow. That is going to hurt.

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#7922481 - 10/20/14 02:24 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Cheesegoggles]
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seems like you're going too fast on your long runs? /alsojealous
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#7922497 - 10/20/14 02:35 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Cheesegoggles]
Impulsive Online   nohc
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I did a 6x600 one hungover day - that shit was fun.

My running is a bit down because Hockey started and I'm biking a bit more with nice weather, but my toenail looks to be falling off and my nips are chaffed, so I'm clearly hardcore.
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#7922852 - 10/20/14 06:17 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: stickaz_old]
Design Offline
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 Originally Posted By: zakcits
I had a mini-mileage breakthrough myself this week. Although my LSR (long/slow run] yesterday SUCKED [was getting hot, I wasnt feeling it, had to stop 2x], I did ~17 miles last week and am NOT particularly sore this week and getting out of bed in the morning wasnt really terribly sore. [normally I'd hobble to the bathroom /old]


 Originally Posted By: zakcits
seems like you're going too fast on your long runs? /alsojealous


Maybe. We're supposed to flirt with our limits, but I do think the body can only take so much at once. Experienced runners with several years experience seem to struggle less and have hardened to a rigorous, semi-ongoing schedule. I've been running 5+ years now. But only 21 months on anything longer than 3 miles. I rarely surpass 100 mi/mo unless training for the marathon. I don't think I'm there yet lol.

Hence, I've been limiting my speedwork to one day a week. I'm keeping my longer runs to within 90% of race pace, in order to maximize recovery before the following week's interval/tempo run. That, combined with mild strength training, seems to be helping tremendously as the longer runs build mileage. Some mild aches (especially after back-to-back marathons) but no serious injuries.

I say do whatever works.


BTW, sounds like you're responding well to frequency.


Edited by Design (10/20/14 06:21 PM)
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#7922863 - 10/20/14 06:28 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Design]
Design Offline
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One more thing I'll add. Y'all probably remember me complaining of mild IT-band soreness over the months. Well, I backed out of an "advanced" half marathon training program because some of my peers thought I might be risking too much too soon.

They suggested doing the intermediate program, evaluating how I feel, then switching back to the advanced program after a few months of regularity. See if things improve. Below are the schedules I've been doing.


Current:
http://www.halhigdon.com/training/51132/Half-Marathon-Intermediate-Training-Program

Previous:
http://www.halhigdon.com/training/51133/Half-Marathon-Advanced-Training-Program
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#7922916 - 10/20/14 07:11 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: stickaz_old]
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 Originally Posted By: zakcits
seems like you're going too fast on your long runs? /alsojealous

Probably. I don't have the patience to hold back and turn a two hour run into a 2.5 hour run. I just want to get done.

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#7923211 - 10/20/14 11:15 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Cheesegoggles]
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I'm a firm believer in lots of miles at race pace...especially once you have a decent base. Only way to run 26 miles at X:XX pace is to do lots of running at that same pace.
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#7923347 - 10/21/14 08:27 AM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Sir Ironpool]
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The past 2 weekends have been good for my long runs. I am not good at nutrition while running, don't have that iron stomach like some do. I did 9/19 (Sat/Sun mileage) 2 weekends ago and this weekend was 10/21. On my long runs I've been eating a pumpkin bagel beforehand and then taking 2 of the Clif Bloks every 3 miles. Seems to be working really well. Sunday was awesome, did 21 miles in 3:35, which is just over a minute slower than what my race pace is. I actually do a 7 mile loop by my house, so I stopped at my house at miles 7 and 14, mile 7 was for maybe 2 minutes and then at mile 14 was for 10 or so minutes (damn being on call for work had to do some stuff quick). Besides those breaks I ran the whole thing and felt good.

Yesterday morning I did a 4 mile run and decided to see how hard I could run the day after a long effort like that, because I felt good. Ended up doing those 4 miles at 8:35, 7:29, 7:26 and 7:03. Was awesome and felt good and still feel good from it. I really feel like I've taken a step forward on the long run nutrition and looking forward to marathon in December!

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#7923743 - 10/21/14 11:56 AM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Lividentity]
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I find the harder I push myself the less of an iron stomach I have.

Nice work!!
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#7924152 - 10/21/14 02:35 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Sir Ironpool]
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 Originally Posted By: Mrs. Ironmom
I'm a firm believer in lots of miles at race pace...especially once you have a decent base. Only way to run 26 miles at X:XX pace is to do lots of running at that same pace.

There may be people who are fit and/or elite enough that all that long slow stuff helps. But for someone like me who does this recreationally, I don't see how running a bunch of 9:45/mile long runs would help me knock out a 9:15/mile marathon. I run my long runs I can finish standing up but not taking it easy. My pace will likely drop some as they get longer just to make sure I have the gas for the extra miles.

I think speed work is helping me quite a bit though. The hard short runs are making the long runs feel easier. And my capacity to recover from a hard effort is getting better which will help with the one highway overpass at the marathon

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#7924252 - 10/21/14 03:34 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Cheesegoggles]
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huh I didn't know it was long-slow vs 'race pace' vs 'tempo' vs 'speed work', but I guess I'm wrong. Thought they worked together/additive. Anyways I like running slow hehe. I am also quite slow. Probably related
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#7924253 - 10/21/14 03:34 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Cheesegoggles]
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I don't think anyone is telling you to run slower. Rather, just listen to what your body is telling you. I know you know this; just clarifying my position for anyone else following this thread.

Not sure what your time goal is, but it sounds like your schedule will get you to 4 hour territory no problem.
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#7924257 - 10/21/14 03:37 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Cheesegoggles]
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Even better are long runs at just a hair slower than race pace, but with the last few miles being sub-race pace. They hurt, but they pay off big.
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#7924273 - 10/21/14 03:46 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: stickaz_old]
Design Offline
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 Originally Posted By: zakcits
huh I didn't know it was long-slow vs 'race pace' vs 'tempo' vs 'speed work', but I guess I'm wrong. Thought they worked together/additive. Anyways I like running slow hehe. I am also quite slow. Probably related


I think most training plans are geared towards building endurance of the casual runner; to maximize benefits and minimize risk of injury. I absolutely agree that the more often we can run at or above our race pace, the better. Just not always the easiest way to build up reliably.

For first time runners, or those with previous injuries, I think an all-out approach is far too risky. But my opinion is from a relatively novice point of view (compared to others participating here).
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#7924405 - 10/21/14 04:48 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Design]
dirtyS13drifta
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 Originally Posted By: Design
 Originally Posted By: zakcits
huh I didn't know it was long-slow vs 'race pace' vs 'tempo' vs 'speed work', but I guess I'm wrong. Thought they worked together/additive. Anyways I like running slow hehe. I am also quite slow. Probably related


I think most training plans are geared towards building endurance of the casual runner; to maximize benefits and minimize risk of injury. I absolutely agree that the more often we can run at or above our race pace, the better. Just not always the easiest way to build up reliably.

For first time runners, or those with previous injuries, I think an all-out approach is far too risky. But my opinion is from a relatively novice point of view (compared to others participating here).


Yeah, I can't critisize Chris's methods, because they've clearly worked for him. Much better than my methods have for me.

But what my mind/lungs are capable, aren't always what my total body is capable of.

Pace runs are critical, but most programs don't have you running near your goal race at your goal pace. Because most people will be fatigued. If you're truly giving your 100% to reach a pace/distance, you'll need a recovery.

So turning your Long Runs into Pace runs seems like a recepe for Most people to see injuries.

I'd say everything I've seen says elite runners would be at even higher risk of over-training if they just went out and did say 50% of their miles at race pace/effort. Not training at maximum isn't just for us mortals/couch potatoes...

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#7924417 - 10/21/14 05:02 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: ]
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just a personal note here: I really should shut up lol I have no idea what I am talking about and am only parroting whatever I read in the hal higdon intermediate 1/2 marathon no0b training guide \:D
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#7924537 - 10/21/14 05:55 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: stickaz_old]
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here is a glimpse at what my coach has me doing, one thing I can tell you is my runs are not boring and I'm enjoying running more than I have in a long time.
This is a very low mile schedule right now while we work on building strength and economy. I like that every run has some component of strength or speed building in it, even though its not necessarily focused on that.

Monday - rest and recovery
Tuesday - 50 min easy run plus 6 x 60 meter hill strides
Wednesday - Compilation mile! This will be rare, but fun in a weird way. 15 min warm-up plus 2 x 200 hard strides to loosen up. Then we will do 4 x 1/4 mile with 3 min jog recovery. The idea is that we add up the quarters to get a mile time, which we will use to compare where you are now with where you are in a few months. This is surprisingly difficult. Finish with a 20 min easy jog cool-down. PM: easy 20-30 min jog if possible (no worries if not)
Thursday - 90 min easy and relaxed, pushing uphills moderately after 20 min
Friday - rest or 4 miles slow and easy (emphasis on slow, keep the turnover high though)
Saturday - 20 min warm-up, 10 x 90 second hills moderate, 20 min cool-down
Sunday - 3 hours on the day. You can split this into 2 runs if desired. The only requirement is that in the last hour, you do 6 x 90 second hills moderate. Dipsea sim on tired legs...
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#7924594 - 10/21/14 06:33 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: ]
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 Originally Posted By: dirtyS13drifta
 Originally Posted By: Design
 Originally Posted By: zakcits
huh I didn't know it was long-slow vs 'race pace' vs 'tempo' vs 'speed work', but I guess I'm wrong. Thought they worked together/additive. Anyways I like running slow hehe. I am also quite slow. Probably related


I think most training plans are geared towards building endurance of the casual runner; to maximize benefits and minimize risk of injury. I absolutely agree that the more often we can run at or above our race pace, the better. Just not always the easiest way to build up reliably.

For first time runners, or those with previous injuries, I think an all-out approach is far too risky. But my opinion is from a relatively novice point of view (compared to others participating here).


Yeah, I can't critisize Chris's methods, because they've clearly worked for him. Much better than my methods have for me.

But what my mind/lungs are capable, aren't always what my total body is capable of.

Pace runs are critical, but most programs don't have you running near your goal race at your goal pace. Because most people will be fatigued. If you're truly giving your 100% to reach a pace/distance, you'll need a recovery.

So turning your Long Runs into Pace runs seems like a recepe for Most people to see injuries.

I'd say everything I've seen says elite runners would be at even higher risk of over-training if they just went out and did say 50% of their miles at race pace/effort. Not training at maximum isn't just for us mortals/couch potatoes...



Well I did preface it with "if you have a decent base." \:D

If you're just trying to cover the distsnce, then long slow runs at whatever pace are fine. If you're actually looking to run it hard/fast/PR/whatever and you have a good base, then IMO those long slow runs are overrated. Run the first part slow if you want, but you should be pushing some of those last miles at an uncomfortable pace. This will teach your body to handle the stresses it's going to face in the latter 1/4 of a marathon. It's really what made for a "breakthrough" moment for me. Two previous standalone marathons (and 4 Ironman runs) where I blew up at miles 18-20...all of which I trained with LSR's usually a minute to 90 seconds slower than race pace. For my BQ I focused on lots of race-pace miles and at mile 20 I was able to feel as strong as I did at the start. The only thing that slowed me down was a headwind.

As I've always said, Im just relating what has worked for me over the last 4 years. Despite what you guys think, I'm far from a naturally gifted runner....I just train hard (and sometimes smart) and have been able to figure it out as I go.

Oh, and I agree with Cheese: I HATE for my runs to take more than 2 hours (unless I'm in the mountains) so the sooner I get done the better. \:D
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#7924602 - 10/21/14 06:42 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Design]
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 Originally Posted By: Design
 Originally Posted By: zakcits
huh I didn't know it was long-slow vs 'race pace' vs 'tempo' vs 'speed work', but I guess I'm wrong. Thought they worked together/additive. Anyways I like running slow hehe. I am also quite slow. Probably related


I think most training plans are geared towards building endurance of the casual runner; to maximize benefits and minimize risk of injury. I absolutely agree that the more often we can run at or above our race pace, the better. Just not always the easiest way to build up reliably.

For first time runners, or those with previous injuries, I think an all-out approach is far too risky. But my opinion is from a relatively novice point of view (compared to others participating here).

I just know that as a beginner/newb I really could not predict a race pace for my first marathon. I could cite a goal pace but the two are not necessarily one in the same. So Hal Higdon telling me to run slower than my race pace didn't make a whole lot of sense to me since I really didn't know what my body was capable of over that distance.

Now I'm training for my second and I think my goal pace and a realistic race pace are more closely aligned than before provided I don't get hurt again.

But I have never felt like I'm going all out on my long runs. And I don't think I'm capable of going all out in a marathon. I'm not even sure what that would mean for me. Running at or just short of lactate threshold the whole time? I'm still learning to strike the balance between getting the best time I'm capable of while not running out of gas before the end.

Anyways, I think my long runs will hopefully be at "race pace" which for me is finish standing up and hopefully run the whole thing without hurting myself, but definitely challenging myself some too.

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#7924642 - 10/21/14 07:03 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Cheesegoggles]
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 Originally Posted By: CheeseGoggles
 Originally Posted By: Design
 Originally Posted By: zakcits
huh I didn't know it was long-slow vs 'race pace' vs 'tempo' vs 'speed work', but I guess I'm wrong. Thought they worked together/additive. Anyways I like running slow hehe. I am also quite slow. Probably related


I think most training plans are geared towards building endurance of the casual runner; to maximize benefits and minimize risk of injury. I absolutely agree that the more often we can run at or above our race pace, the better. Just not always the easiest way to build up reliably.

For first time runners, or those with previous injuries, I think an all-out approach is far too risky. But my opinion is from a relatively novice point of view (compared to others participating here).

I just know that as a beginner/newb I really could not predict a race pace for my first marathon. I could cite a goal pace but the two are not necessarily one in the same. So Hal Higdon telling me to run slower than my race pace didn't make a whole lot of sense to me since I really didn't know what my body was capable of over that distance.

Now I'm training for my second and I think my goal pace and a realistic race pace are more closely aligned than before provided I don't get hurt again.

But I have never felt like I'm going all out on my long runs. And I don't think I'm capable of going all out in a marathon. I'm not even sure what that would mean for me. Running at or just short of lactate threshold the whole time? I'm still learning to strike the balance between getting the best time I'm capable of while not running out of gas before the end.

Anyways, I think my long runs will hopefully be at "race pace" which for me is finish standing up and hopefully run the whole thing without hurting myself, but definitely challenging myself some too.


"Racing" a marathon is one cruel bitch. You're basically running just under redline and on the ragged edge for all 26 miles. It requires lots of focus to maintain that pace.
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#7924677 - 10/21/14 07:27 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Cheesegoggles]
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Many seasoned runners like to suggest 1 min/mi slower than your best half marathon time (depending on how many or recently you've run).

When training for LA, I started with a goal of finishing @ 10 min/mi based on when I had started my training (had just completed LB Half @ 1:58 prior to starting). That approach worked very well. However, taking that approach and then trying to do a sub-4 hour marathon 8 weeks later... I had to slow down by mile 16.

In reality, if you're feeling like you got some spark in the tank the last few miles of a long training run, and your body feels strong, maybe kick it up a notch and see how you feel the next couple days. Like Chris, those have lead to quite a few breakthrough moments for me. But I've been VERY careful not to overdo it.
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#7925000 - 10/22/14 01:11 AM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Design]
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 Originally Posted By: Design
Many seasoned runners like to suggest 1 min/mi slower than your best half marathon time (depending on how many or recently you've run).

When training for LA, I started with a goal of finishing @ 10 min/mi based on when I had started my training (had just completed LB Half @ 1:58 prior to starting). That approach worked very well. However, taking that approach and then trying to do a sub-4 hour marathon 8 weeks later... I had to slow down by mile 16.


Similar story here, I ran my first injury free 1/2 @ 1:55. I thought that meant I could do my first full under 4, complete failure. Died at mile 17ish, finished it though. I'm about to attempt round #2, so far training appears to be on track, albeit not gunning for sub 4.

My long slow runs are a gamble. I've attempted several @ 10:45 pace only to feel like shit. I did 16 this past weekend without pacing my splits, knocked it off @ 10:15. I felt a little better afterwards than previous LSR's. I'm going to try something next weekend, maybe run every 3rd or 4th mile at 10k pace during my LSR.

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#7927397 - 10/23/14 11:26 AM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: DalM3]
Design Offline
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Keeping things going here.

Scored another personal best in speed training this week; 6 miles @ 47:09 (7:52/mi). Feeling strong and ready for Surf City 10 this Sunday.

Going to try and stick with the 10mi/80:00 pace group for as long as possible. If things go well, I might have a shot and a sub-1:45 in the Vegas half marathon in 3 weeks.

*fingers crossed*
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#7927654 - 10/23/14 01:01 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Design]
Cheesegoggles Offline
Post Master Supreme


Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 19073
Loc: Here
Two runs so far this week:

10x400 at the track on Tuesday morning. All of my intervals except a couple were between 7:00 and 7:30/mile (the first was faster and two were 7:36). A better pace than when I did 7x400 a couple of months ago. Probably both due to fitness and cooler temps.

5 mile tempo run today at about 8:18/mile.

Those are both at a pretty good clip for me.

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#7927823 - 10/23/14 02:19 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Design]
dirtyS13drifta
Unregistered



 Originally Posted By: Design
Keeping things going here.

Scored another personal best in speed training this week; 6 miles @ 47:09 (7:52/mi). Feeling strong and ready for Surf City 10 this Sunday.

Going to try and stick with the 10mi/80:00 pace group for as long as possible. If things go well, I might have a shot and a sub-1:45 in the Vegas half marathon in 3 weeks.

*fingers crossed*

Once I get my feet figured out, we should strava.

Seems like you're reasonably close to those paces. But I think you'll want to get that 10km(almost) sub 7:45.

Though does it make sense to do a hard 6 miler that close to your 10 miler?
Or is the 10 mile incidental on the path of the 1:45 1/2.


I'm intrigued to see how the 10 goes. What's your weekly milage?

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#7927855 - 10/23/14 02:34 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: ]
stickaz_old Offline
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Registered: 02/04/01
Posts: 56459
Loc: Nor Cal, Hella hurr durr
fast people problems \:\|
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