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#9316814 - 05/07/18 11:46 AM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Design]
Mrs. Ironmom Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Design


Pacing was a success today. Lots of first timers in our group. Crossed the finish within a minute under goal.

Probably something I'd like to do again. Just a little closer to race pace lol.


Nice job Kent...thatís pretty damn accurate! How many of your group stuck with you from start to finish?


Edited by Mrs. Ironmom (05/07/18 11:46 AM)
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#9316889 - 05/07/18 01:10 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Mrs. Ironmom]
Design Offline
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Around 5-6 of the original 15. Picked up a few from the 2:30 group along the way. We paced just fast enough to take it easy up the hills, and cruise real easy the last mile.
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#9316949 - 05/07/18 02:28 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Design]
Daffy Cuck Offline
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I have a 5K race this weekend /weee.
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#9317449 - 05/08/18 10:56 AM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Daffy Cuck]
dirtyS13drifta Offline
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So...

12 days until a century

Longest ride was 53 miles, ass is a little sore still.

At this point what's better prep:
1 more long slow ride of 50-60
2 shorter/faster rides of 25-30

I sort of feel like my ass would prefer 2 shorter rides.

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#9317463 - 05/08/18 11:01 AM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: dirtyS13drifta]
Design Offline
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There's probably no performance benefit this close to the race, aside from the psychological boost. I say option 2.
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#9317497 - 05/08/18 11:24 AM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Design]
Daffy Cuck Offline
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HAY is IN THE BARN M*FER
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#9318164 - 05/09/18 09:06 AM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Daffy Cuck]
Mrs. Ironmom Offline
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Iíd say find a pair of shorts with the thickest pad available!
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#9318433 - 05/09/18 01:46 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Chas, Chuck, Charles, etc.]
markw Offline
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Going to start running... I hate running and I haven't been on run in about 18 years.

Wish me luck. Will update.
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#9318548 - 05/09/18 03:11 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: markw]
Mrs. Ironmom Offline
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#9319008 - 05/10/18 09:36 AM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Mrs. Ironmom]
markw Offline
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Wow. Running hurts everything. My chest hurts, my legs hurt, my shins are fucking screaming.

I have some learning to do. Wife is joining me next run... we will be doing this. I've never been a runner, but the idea of it is appealing.. going out for a nice relaxing run.



Unfortunately as of now a nice relaxing run feels like death. I look like I'm going to legit die. (not fat, 6ft 180lbs... just not a runner and never have been)


Any tips are greatly appreciated. (oh, and it turns out I cannot run for more than like... 90 seconds as of this point lol... it's sad.)
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#9319248 - 05/10/18 11:54 AM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: markw]
Daffy Cuck Offline
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2-3 miles is plenty, 2-3 times a week. Slow down, go slower if it really hurts, should be able to hold a conversation when yoggin
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#9319254 - 05/10/18 11:57 AM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Daffy Cuck]
Design Offline
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Slow down and walk if you have to.

Focus on establishing a schedule/routine.

Keep the mileage low and gradually build.

Invest in good shoes.
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#9319303 - 05/10/18 12:35 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Design]
dirtyS13drifta Offline
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Yeah, slow, very slow, go even slower than you think. Just build the habit. It'll take a while to not feel like death

Pretty soon though.

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#9319374 - 05/10/18 01:53 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: dirtyS13drifta]
markw Offline
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Thanks for the feedback/tips so far... now...


A friend was just telling me I should be attempting avoid landing on my heels, and try to jog by landing on the balls of my feet... this sounds and feels super awkward... is this really a thing? Have I been doing this wrong my whole life? lol
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#9319405 - 05/10/18 02:05 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: markw]
Mrs. Ironmom Offline
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Yes, you generally want to avoid heel striking because itís an inefficient way for the legs and body to absorb the impact of running. You donít have to land on the balls of your feet (forefoot) just try to make an effort to land with as much surfacecarea of your foot as possible. Shoes that have a smaller heel to toe drop will help as well.

As for the pain and discomfort....thatís totally normal. Just start slow and easy, and walk as necessary. Following a Couch to 5k program is a fantastic way to ease into it without turning out like Stickaz. \:D
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#9319656 - 05/10/18 06:59 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Mrs. Ironmom]
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also some alternate reports suggest heel striking is not just normal but its probably ideal in the 9:00/mi + range as far as efficiency goes [with a modern EVA foam or whatever maximal shoe this doesnt seem to be correlated to any additional injuries in various studies around 20 mpw for mid-packers]

your body will naturally adjust to mid-sole strikes like the 1500/mid-distance elites you'll see at track meets certainly in the 4:00/mi range and probably naturally around ~6:00/mi or thereabouts as well

not a popular opinion, but seems to pass merit. It's yet another thing that hobbyjoggers dont need to obsess over: you're already probably striding ideally for your capability.

Shocking conclusion: middle age hobby joggers dont stride much like Daniel Komen and probably shouldnt try to

http://running.competitor.com/2014/02/in...n-running_95678

 Quote:

The big question is, since fast runners are equally efficient with either a heel or midfoot contact point, while most recreational runners are more efficient with a heel-first strike pattern, at what speed does a heel contact lose its metabolic advantage? In a computer simulated study evaluating efficiency, researchers from the University of Massachusetts showed that while running at 7:36 per mile pace, heel striking was approximately 6 percent more efficient than mid or forefoot striking (8). Some recent research suggests that the 6:25 per mile pace is the transi≠tion point at which there is no difference in econ≠omy between heel and midfoot strike patterns (9). These studies confirm that although highly skilled runners are efficient while landing on their mid or forefeet, the majority of recreational runners are more efficient with a heel-first strike pattern.


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#9320000 - 05/11/18 08:42 AM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Daffy Cuck]
Chas, Chuck, Charles, etc. Offline
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Go with what's comfortable. Your body will naturally adapt, I find. I used to be a heel striker, but I found that as I became more advanced in my running, the drills and workouts that I did slowly changed me to a midstriker. Don't worry so much about whether to heel strike or whatever. Do some dynamic stretching before, make sure to stretch after, and go nice and easy.
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#9320001 - 05/11/18 08:43 AM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Chas, Chuck, Charles, etc.]
Chas, Chuck, Charles, etc. Offline
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On a different note: I just picked up a chest heartrate monitor...why? I dunno I suppose it'll be interesting to see what my lactate threshold/VO2 max is.
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#9320068 - 05/11/18 10:07 AM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Daffy Cuck]
Mrs. Ironmom Offline
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Thatís all well and good, but weíre not talking about efficiency with OP, weíre trying to keep him running while minimizing the chance of injury. Itís why Golden Harper started Altra footwear with its zero drop...to reduce injury. Based on personal experience, it works...and I just read an article that Altra has better brand loyalty than any other running shoe brand, so itís likely working for lots of others too.

No reason to obsess over it OP, just run how it feels comfortable. It never hurts to be constantly evaluating what your body is doing while running though.


 Originally Posted By: no-yield jackhole
also some alternate reports suggest heel striking is not just normal but its probably ideal in the 9:00/mi + range as far as efficiency goes [with a modern EVA foam or whatever maximal shoe this doesnt seem to be correlated to any additional injuries in various studies around 20 mpw for mid-packers]

your body will naturally adjust to mid-sole strikes like the 1500/mid-distance elites you'll see at track meets certainly in the 4:00/mi range and probably naturally around ~6:00/mi or thereabouts as well

not a popular opinion, but seems to pass merit. It's yet another thing that hobbyjoggers dont need to obsess over: you're already probably striding ideally for your capability.

Shocking conclusion: middle age hobby joggers dont stride much like Daniel Komen and probably shouldnt try to

http://running.competitor.com/2014/02/in...n-running_95678

 Quote:

The big question is, since fast runners are equally efficient with either a heel or midfoot contact point, while most recreational runners are more efficient with a heel-first strike pattern, at what speed does a heel contact lose its metabolic advantage? In a computer simulated study evaluating efficiency, researchers from the University of Massachusetts showed that while running at 7:36 per mile pace, heel striking was approximately 6 percent more efficient than mid or forefoot striking (8). Some recent research suggests that the 6:25 per mile pace is the transi≠tion point at which there is no difference in econ≠omy between heel and midfoot strike patterns (9). These studies confirm that although highly skilled runners are efficient while landing on their mid or forefeet, the majority of recreational runners are more efficient with a heel-first strike pattern.

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#9320080 - 05/11/18 10:18 AM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Mrs. Ironmom]
Chas, Chuck, Charles, etc. Offline
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^^^ key there is just go with what's comfortable, especially when you're just getting into it.
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#9320173 - 05/11/18 12:13 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Chas, Chuck, Charles, etc.]
Kevin the 800th Offline
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I think the key there is to have a 'realistic' actual/current max HR value for that to be accurate. Lower might produce more realistic results.

Like I've seen #'s from 52-58 without much/any improvement in times [21 ish 5K to low 20 5K], I've seen 182 actual HR in a series of 800 repeats designed to find it, but probably 177 or even 175 is more accurate so I use that. Looking at a performance table based on 5K ET alone it says like 44 lol [which is probably the truth]

The sub-maximal VO2 max estimate is highly dependent on HHR%, so if your HR is lower or significantly lower than what you've entered as your HR max, its going to estimate that your VO2 max is better given that youre running a bit lower than your actual peak HR

in a 5K for instance youre supposed to be able to hit around 93% or so of actual max, maybe a little higher if you're a total masochist
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#9320204 - 05/11/18 12:43 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Kevin the 800th]
Chas, Chuck, Charles, etc. Offline
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meh I'll do the lactate threshold test (30 min sustained) and see where I'm at. I just use 220-age to guestimate my max heartrate.
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#9320249 - 05/11/18 01:07 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Chas, Chuck, Charles, etc.]
Kevin the 800th Offline
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those never work imho

race a 5K at 90-95% [or 100 if you can handle it]

OR follow the warmup + 2 or 3 800s at 100% with a specified rest interval to slam into your HR max [google the 800 repeat max HR protocol]

220-age is likely to be off by 10-20

The '800' max HR protocol is the following:

The key between the intervals is to reach a point where it's your cardio system that hits peak redline and NOT your legs, which is why the order and rest are important:

2 mile warmup, not too easy. Maybe HMP pace or :30s slower or so. You want to be heated from this, but not tired at all
~30s break or something
800 at a track with everything you've got and anything you've been saving all week. Take the first 400 out HARD, dont be a bitch. You should be well under your current mile PR/capability, but a bit slower of course than current 400 PR capability.

The second lap of this 400 is intended to find your true max HR so you have to go for it with everything on lap 2, dont be a bitch or the test doesnt work

sample pacing: if 6:00/mi is your current mile PR, you want to take that first 400 out in the 'Gray Zone' [aka too hard], so like 1:20 or something [faster than you'd want to go out if it was an actual 800 race, you are forcing a red zone event in the 2nd lap, but it cant be too bad that you just fold. Yes for someone with a 6:00 current mile PR, a 2:40 800 is probably impossible, maybe 2:45 tho with proper pacing or so

then :60s break, and get back out there, this time a 400

The 400 you should aim as close as possible to your current 400 capability [obviously you wont get there, but you can probably get within :05s or so]

so CN:
2 mile at HMP or so, maybe up to HMP + :30s/mi
:30s rest
800 balls-to-the-wall max HR test
:60s rest
400 2nd chance to identify max HR with a near-400 maximal effort

If you arent a bitch, the 800 should identify your max HR

if you come up with some lame result like I always do [sub maximal value], promise yourself next time you try this you wont be such a bitch

alternatively, do a lot of data logging and record a hill repeat workout, this surprisingly is pretty likely to catch it, too
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#9320595 - 05/12/18 07:19 AM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Kevin the 800th]
Chas, Chuck, Charles, etc. Offline
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total side note: I love how half of the descriptors are "don't be a bitch"

I'll have to try this out and see. I'm such a data nerd. How much is all this going to actually change my workouts? probably close to none, but it's really neat to look at

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#9320748 - 05/12/18 10:30 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Chas, Chuck, Charles, etc.]
Mrs. Ironmom Offline
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Itís pretty crazy how putting lots of vertical in your training makes road runs feel effortless. \:D

Had an effortless 17 miler down the coast to cap off my very first hundred mile training week. I was actually able to pick up the speed for the last 4 and was barely winded. Damn, Iím feeling like Iím really on the right track for a sub 24 at Western States. Hoping to get 3 more weeks like these, then a nice 2 week taper. I wanna feel like a caged tiger being let loose on that course.

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#9320782 - 05/13/18 08:37 AM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Mrs. Ironmom]
Chas, Chuck, Charles, etc. Offline
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yeaaaahhhh I don't think "lots of vertical" begins to describe the seventy seven fucking hundred feet of vertical gain that you did in that last race. Fuck. that. noise.
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#9321152 - 05/14/18 10:42 AM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Chas, Chuck, Charles, etc.]
dirtyS13drifta Offline
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is 7,500 a lot?
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#9321156 - 05/14/18 10:49 AM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: dirtyS13drifta]
Chas, Chuck, Charles, etc. Offline
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 Originally Posted By: dirtyS13drifta
is 7,500 a lot?
7,700 feet is just shy of 1.5 miles.

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#9321163 - 05/14/18 10:52 AM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Chas, Chuck, Charles, etc.]
dirtyS13drifta Offline
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but that doesn't answer if it's a lot

Edited by dirtyS13drifta (05/14/18 11:19 AM)

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#9321237 - 05/14/18 12:16 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: dirtyS13drifta]
Mrs. Ironmom Offline
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 Originally Posted By: dirtyS13drifta
but that doesn't answer if it's a lot


On paper, nah. During the race? Hell yeah it was!
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#9321245 - 05/14/18 12:24 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Mrs. Ironmom]
dirtyS13drifta Offline
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I think I might have found a 50 finally.

14,500 of vert
in August

What could go wrong

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#9322165 - 05/15/18 03:51 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: dirtyS13drifta]
Kevin the 800th Offline
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I think I just triggered my troublesome achilles doing a grass yog yesterday [10k @ 8:20/mi], felt easy but today I'm limping a bit and its tender to the touch

ah well, back to the pool tonight
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#9324963 - 05/19/18 08:57 AM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Kevin the 800th]
Chas, Chuck, Charles, etc. Offline
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It has been raining. All week. I want sun. I am tired of running in downpours.
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#9325217 - 05/19/18 07:51 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Chas, Chuck, Charles, etc.]
Kevin the 800th Offline
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Registered: 05/11/18
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had a decent tempo jog just now, not sure where that came from. A month ago I was totally underperforming but this is... actually.... my 2nd best ever 10k? lol


did about a 47:10 10k, Garmin gave me a Vo2 max += 1 for the effort. woot!

splits:
7:47
7:44
7:33
7:41
7:41
7:20
6:53 last /0.2


/maybe I'm back on the road toward some progress. Had hope to tick off a <20 5K and a <1:40 half this year, but with allergy season I threw those out the window. This one workout has me wondering if I might be able to get back on track for those this year...
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#9325551 - 05/20/18 02:50 PM Re: Running/Cardio Thread [Re: Kevin the 800th]
Chas, Chuck, Charles, etc. Offline
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Registered: 09/26/02
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Those are pretty consistent splits, not bad at all!

Ran 15 today on already tired legs. Not my best, but not my worst; between the humidity today and already sore legs, I was feeling it. Still, fairly consistent splits and my HR was right on target, so I can't be too upset about it.

Mile 1 was also a 7:40, but couldn't get it all on one screen.


Edited by Chas, Chuck, Charles, etc. (05/20/18 02:50 PM)

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