#614502 - 10/31/06 12:56 AM
Re: STI > Z06
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qksl2
Post Master Sr
Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 3279
Loc: So-Cal
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Dude yox, I'm not mag racing not one bit. I don't read those reviews or care. I'm speaking from my personal experience on willow, and my 3 times a week on some kinda course, be it drag, road course, or rally. I'm no pro driver, far, far, far from it, and I wouldn't even consider myself a good driver. However, I am far from the only one who feels that the vette feels heavy and twitchy at low speeds whereas other lighter awd cars can blast through the agile sections. Its not like some kinda mystery: as you said, fat tires, 500 lb/ft, and incredible throttle response along with neutral tuning does not a stable car make. And it doesn't.
Ian
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#614503 - 10/31/06 12:58 AM
Re: STI > Z06
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qksl2
Post Master Sr
Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 3279
Loc: So-Cal
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BTW: I don't mean to come accross as hot shit in any way; just be careful, not all of us mag race and you aren't the only one here to tracks their cars. Not all us have to post every cone dodging "adventure" for sva to oodle over.
Ian
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#614504 - 10/31/06 01:54 AM
Re: STI > Z06
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Quad4_driver
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 11119
Loc: B.C. Canada
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Quote:
Dude yox, I'm not mag racing not one bit. I don't read those reviews or care. I'm speaking from my personal experience on willow, and my 3 times a week on some kinda course, be it drag, road course, or rally. I'm no pro driver, far, far, far from it, and I wouldn't even consider myself a good driver. However, I am far from the only one who feels that the vette feels heavy and twitchy at low speeds whereas other lighter awd cars can blast through the agile sections. Its not like some kinda mystery: as you said, fat tires, 500 lb/ft, and incredible throttle response along with neutral tuning does not a stable car make. And it doesn't.
Ian
sorry , but lighter? I was under the impression that the Zo6 was lighter than an evo or STI.
I think people are onto somthing with the huge tires effecting steering feel though.
Are C5 Zo6s still dominateing AutoX? should that not put to rest the arguement?
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#614505 - 10/31/06 02:07 AM
Re: STI > Z06
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qksl2
Post Master Sr
Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 3279
Loc: So-Cal
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It feels heavier. Sorry. See, its not just a figment of my imagination. The car feels heavy and bulky COMPARATIVELY. Its not. I know, I know, its fucking fast. And I love the thing. Definetely one of my all time fav cars. And for the money, screw your ferrari or viper. Z06 please.
So there are things that other cars do better. I'm over it.
Ian
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#614506 - 10/31/06 05:00 AM
Re: STI > Z06
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MikeYOX
Post Master Sr
Registered: 07/03/00
Posts: 7607
Loc: West Boemfugk, Egypt
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Quote:
Every racetrack review of those 3 cars I've read has contradicted what you just said.
Every time a car mag has tested the Z06 on a track, that I've read, they've commented that it's tail-happy and nervous at the limit while the Viper and GT are planted. Of course the Z06 is incredibly quick, but I don't get why so many people refuse to accept that it has any flaws whatsoever.
There's nothing in that information contradicting what I have said. If it were really that much more difficult to drive at the limit, the Z06 would never turn the lap times that it does. You put that GT, Viper, and Z06 on just about any track, and the Z06 is going to clean house.
Now how in the hell is it that a car is going to be ridiculously tail happy, and hard to drive at the limit, and consistently turn times that match or beat its competition? Something doesn't add up here.
Like I said before. Put down the mags, and start watching these cars in action. I've never seen this disadvantaged tail happy Z06 in real life. I've never driven a tail happy disadvantaged Z06 in real life. I've never met the driver of a tail happy disadvantaged Z06. Don't take my word for it. Certainly don't take a mag's word for it. Check it out for yourself. Mags are a bunch of whiners anyway.
Don't put words in my mouth either. I nver said the Z06 was flawless, and I have paid twice its value for its competition. What do you think?
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#614507 - 10/31/06 05:11 AM
Re: STI > Z06
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MikeYOX
Post Master Sr
Registered: 07/03/00
Posts: 7607
Loc: West Boemfugk, Egypt
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Quote:
Dude yox, I'm not mag racing not one bit. I don't read those reviews or care. I'm speaking from my personal experience on willow, and my 3 times a week on some kinda course, be it drag, road course, or rally. I'm no pro driver, far, far, far from it, and I wouldn't even consider myself a good driver. However, I am far from the only one who feels that the vette feels heavy and twitchy at low speeds whereas other lighter awd cars can blast through the agile sections. Its not like some kinda mystery: as you said, fat tires, 500 lb/ft, and incredible throttle response along with neutral tuning does not a stable car make. And it doesn't.
Ian
You just repeated everything I already said, and agreed with me.
The topic was the Z06 being more difficult to drive at the limit, not feeling more difficult to drive at the limit. Regardless of how it feels, it will destroy almost anything lightweight and AWD in low speed driving. I've seen stock Z06s come out and beat hosts of race modified EVOs and WRX's. It's quite sad really.
You should know that a car feeling better at the limits does not mean that it is faster at the limits.
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#614508 - 10/31/06 10:43 AM
Re: STI > Z06
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Nathan
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 21626
Loc: Roedyelin
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Quote:
Quote:
Every racetrack review of those 3 cars I've read has contradicted what you just said.
Every time a car mag has tested the Z06 on a track, that I've read, they've commented that it's tail-happy and nervous at the limit while the Viper and GT are planted. Of course the Z06 is incredibly quick, but I don't get why so many people refuse to accept that it has any flaws whatsoever.
There's nothing in that information contradicting what I have said. If it were really that much more difficult to drive at the limit, the Z06 would never turn the lap times that it does. You put that GT, Viper, and Z06 on just about any track, and the Z06 is going to clean house.
Now how in the hell is it that a car is going to be ridiculously tail happy, and hard to drive at the limit, and consistently turn times that match or beat its competition? Something doesn't add up here.
Like I said before. Put down the mags, and start watching these cars in action. I've never seen this disadvantaged tail happy Z06 in real life. I've never driven a tail happy disadvantaged Z06 in real life. I've never met the driver of a tail happy disadvantaged Z06. Don't take my word for it. Certainly don't take a mag's word for it. Check it out for yourself. Mags are a bunch of whiners anyway.
Don't put words in my mouth either. I nver said the Z06 was flawless, and I have paid twice its value for its competition. What do you think?
How are mags "a bunch of whiners?" Car and Driver recently did a test of a bunch of cars at Virginia International Raceway. Their times:
Viper: 3:01.6
Z06: 3:01.1
GT: 3:00.7
I wouldn't really consider that "cleaning house", as even the Viper is close enough that driver skill could sway the standings.
About the Z06, they said,
Quote:
The Corvette Z06, in contrast, was brutal and tricky to drive at the limit... driving it fast was spooky, if oversteer makes you nervous. Mastering this car was challenging and satisfying, but drivers needed to be on their game.
They called the GT "much more a surgical instrument than the Z06 was."
You (and many others) claim that somehow using magazine data is a bogus way to debate, but how does hanging out at one corner of a road course watching Z06s go by tell me anything about how they handle, or their corner exit/entry speeds? All of that is broken down in this particular article.
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#614509 - 10/31/06 03:33 PM
Re: STI > Z06
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qksl2
Post Master Sr
Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 3279
Loc: So-Cal
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Quote:
Quote:
Dude yox, I'm not mag racing not one bit. I don't read those reviews or care. I'm speaking from my personal experience on willow, and my 3 times a week on some kinda course, be it drag, road course, or rally. I'm no pro driver, far, far, far from it, and I wouldn't even consider myself a good driver. However, I am far from the only one who feels that the vette feels heavy and twitchy at low speeds whereas other lighter awd cars can blast through the agile sections. Its not like some kinda mystery: as you said, fat tires, 500 lb/ft, and incredible throttle response along with neutral tuning does not a stable car make. And it doesn't.
Ian
You just repeated everything I already said, and agreed with me.
The topic was the Z06 being more difficult to drive at the limit, not feeling more difficult to drive at the limit. Regardless of how it feels, it will destroy almost anything lightweight and AWD in low speed driving. I've seen stock Z06s come out and beat hosts of race modified EVOs and WRX's. It's quite sad really.
You should know that a car feeling better at the limits does not mean that it is faster at the limits.
Well you seem pretty sure about it and thats fine. But in the end, let me tell you one thing that I've learned from road racing and even more pointedly in rally racing, where the drivers ability to feel the car and go fast in it are one and the same: harder to drive with higher potential does not a winner make.
Sure, you've seen lots of stock c6's beat up on modded out ricers. Unimpressive at best. You know far better than to make such a weak argument. A well driven gto will outrun a poorly driven z06. Who cares. Subject to driver talent at very best, horribly unscientific at worst.
I know the z06 is overall easily the faster and more dominant car. But give me a viper and give me a z06... I like the vette way better but I'll lap faster in teh viper, and not sweat while doing it.
Ian
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#614510 - 11/01/06 07:56 PM
Re: STI > Z06
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ajuesnEx00
Post Master Sr
Registered: 09/11/00
Posts: 3187
Loc: USA
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Z06 is such a hot americano. there is no way some subie can beat z06 in track.
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#614513 - 11/03/06 04:36 PM
Re: STI > Z06
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cliff st-clair
Post Master Sr
Registered: 01/03/00
Posts: 6376
Loc: Queens Village, NY
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Quote:
Z06 is such a hot americano. there is no way some subie can beat z06 in track.
This was a modded subie and it did beat the Z06 around that track, get over it.
_________________________
03' 350z 04' Mazda 3 s
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#614514 - 11/04/06 02:10 AM
Re: STI > Z06
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XT6Wagon
Moderator
Registered: 10/30/99
Posts: 7265
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actualy it was a STOCK Subie, much like a Z06 is a stock corvette.
only they make <500 S204's versus the several thousand or more Z06's.
and they sell the Z06 in the US vs JDM only S204
For the trolls who missed it, the S204 is NOT faster than a Z06, its faster in the RIGHT sections and fast enough when its not faster to keep the Z06 from ever getting ahead. So the Z06 that beats it by a solid margin on a empty track... can't EVER pass the S204. The track is ALSO not suited to the Z06, tight corners, limited straights, and slick surface all hinder it. A wider, longer, and more flowing course would have it running circles around the stock S204 giving the tire and power differences between the two.
_________________________
White 04 Impreza with factory foglamp covers
[Email]11.893@112.13mph[/Email]
on Stock tires
http://www.ej255.net
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#614515 - 11/04/06 08:28 PM
Re: STI > Z06
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Nathan
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 21626
Loc: Roedyelin
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Quote:
Well it is going to be more difficult to drive no matter what. With nearly double the WHP of a stock STi, the driver will have to modulate the throttle more. Double the WHP of your subie and it will require more skill to drive.
How come the Ford GT is so much easier to drive than the Z06, even though it has more power and is faster around some tracks (like in Car and Driver's recent test)?
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#614518 - 11/05/06 12:03 PM
Re: STI > Z06
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Nathan
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 21626
Loc: Roedyelin
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Quote:
There are enough people here who have done track days and actual racing with and against these cars that we dont have to constantly cite car mags as an authority. It only clutters up the thread with bullshit.
So actual data is trumped by anecdotal evidence?
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#614520 - 11/05/06 06:44 PM
Re: STI > Z06
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Nathan
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 21626
Loc: Roedyelin
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Quote:
I dont think the opinions of people in car rags really qualifies as hard data. And even if it did, I'd rather hear personal anecdotes than recital of car magazine anecdotes. I think there tends to be a lot of bias inside magazines. I trust GRM but that is pretty much it.
I was citing the Nov. '06 Car and Driver where they not only give a narrative about their impressions of how each car handled, but give corner entry/exit speeds for every corner of the course, as well as maximum speeds on each straight and lateral g.
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#614521 - 11/06/06 01:51 AM
Re: STI > Z06
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qksl2
Post Master Sr
Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 3279
Loc: So-Cal
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After driving a c6 z06 this weekend, and having some seat time in the gt and quite a bit in the viper, both of the latter are easier to drive over the entire track, and faster over almost all of it too. The z06 feels like it will rotate easier than the viper in very tight sections... but be careful puttin the throttle on! The gt just feels planted as hell, and fast. Gearing makes it really calm to drive, too, comparatively. It feels like the chassis handles the power way better.
Know that this is ocming from a guy who likes the z06 best of all, by far, too. I'm just not so fucking blind to not notice its "character".
Ian
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#614522 - 11/07/06 03:15 PM
Re: STI > Z06
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FirePlug
Jr Poster
Registered: 12/22/00
Posts: 165
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska, USA
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Quote:
The zo6 is faster in a straight line, that's the bottom line
If I'm not mistaken I believe the z tune skyline ran a faster 1/4 mile?! A 10.06 from 0-400m, granted that's a little less then a quarter...but still a low 10 none the less!
Edited by FirePlug (11/07/06 03:20 PM)
_________________________
PT67
11.5 @ 125 on 18psi (4xxwhp)
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#614524 - 11/07/06 06:53 PM
Re: STI > Z06
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Quad4_driver
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 11119
Loc: B.C. Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
I dont think the opinions of people in car rags really qualifies as hard data. And even if it did, I'd rather hear personal anecdotes than recital of car magazine anecdotes. I think there tends to be a lot of bias inside magazines. I trust GRM but that is pretty much it.
I was citing the Nov. '06 Car and Driver where they not only give a narrative about their impressions of how each car handled, but give corner entry/exit speeds for every corner of the course, as well as maximum speeds on each straight and lateral g.
I've got a new road and track test of the Viper vs Z06 vs GT500. The Z06 is .01 of a second behind the viper in lap time. They did say the viper was easier to drive, but atributed it solely to grip. And they stated they would love to see what a Z06 would do with better tires.
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#614525 - 11/07/06 09:20 PM
Re: STI > Z06
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qksl2
Post Master Sr
Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 3279
Loc: So-Cal
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Z06 feels like it has higher peak grip. Viper feels like it has more average grip and isn't always fighitng front slide v rear slide. Again, Z06 is my fav by far. Light weight plus big power? Yes please.
Ian
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#8965833 - 03/07/17 01:40 AM
Re: STI > Z06
[Re: meiqing]
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meiqing
Newbie
Registered: 03/07/17
Posts: 2
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#8978789 - 03/20/17 09:46 PM
Re: STI > Z06
[Re: meiqing]
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ypMs
Jr Poster
Registered: 03/20/17
Posts: 80
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#9102048 - 08/10/17 06:21 AM
Re: STI > Z06
[Re: Nurburgring]
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Jamess
Newbie
Registered: 08/10/17
Posts: 3
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#9173995 - 10/31/17 03:26 AM
Re: STI > Z06
[Re: Nathan]
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HYst
Jr Member
Registered: 05/21/17
Posts: 432
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