#3566274 - 03/16/09 12:06 AM
The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor
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progressi
Post Master Sr
Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 9134
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ER,,,probably... heheh
Shamelessly stolen from Rawfish's post in Out There,as quoted from Eric Hsu.
1. The Hyundai 4B11T is not the same as the Mitsubishi EVO X 4B11T. While the Hyundai 4B is similar in many ways, there are very few common parts. The block, head, pistons, rods, crank, etc. are all similar, but different. Different in that they are lower grade. Hyundai’s rods are powder sintered whereas Mitsubishi’s are forged. Mitsubishi’s pistons are made by Mahle and have a oil reservoir underneath the dish like a Porsche turbo piston. Hyundai’s cast piston is no different in strength compared to one of their passenger cars. Hyundai’s 4B block has far less webbing (this is visible from the exterior). The differences go on and on. That doesn’t mean the Hyundai parts suck. It’s just that the Mitsubishi 4B11T is way better out of the box. While the parts are different, that doesn’t mean that the Mitsubishi pistons, rods, and crank cannot fit into a Hyundai 4B.
2. The cylinder head is different enough that the exhaust manifold and intake manifold flanges and gaskets are not common. They are absolutely different so there will be no manifold and turbo swapping. This is an absolute fact since Gary tried fitting the manifolds from an EVO X. The Mitsu engine is mounted transverse and it is very likely that the castings wouldn’t work anyway. That’s too bad since the Cosworth EVO X 4B11T CNC ported big valve cylinder head will be available to the public soon. See #6 below on the cams.
3. The LSD in the sports version is a gear type LSD and not a clutch type.
4. There is an orifice in the clutch’s hydraulic plumbing that needs to be removed for performance purposes (as do many other cars).
5. The Hyundai V-6 is very similar in design to the Nissan VQ35. If you’re going to make a new V6, you’d be a fool not to copy, oh sorry uh….model your new engine after the VQ35 since it is the best damn V6 in production right now.
6. While the cams are SIMILAR in appearance, they may not be identical like the GenesisDriven blog states. The blog post states that their Korean source says, “With your pictures send to Korea, our engineer and tech dept. have confirmed its identical as 2.0 turbo Theta for those cams.” I’m not sure what kind of engineer looks at a picture on a computer screen, makes a foolish assumption, and says, “Yep, those are identical.” I don’t think I want that engineer designing my parts. Regardless, the Hyundai and Mitsu 4B11T camshafts need to be precisely measured before saying that they are “identical”. I sure hope they’re the same because Cosworth already offers the best damn EVO X cams that money can buy. It sounds like as uppity as the Evo boys are over there on EvoM,they were right. Very different motors.
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#3566320 - 03/16/09 12:39 AM
Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor
[Re: orangegrey]
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progressi
Post Master Sr
Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 9134
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I never really thought about it either way,but GRM seems to prefer the clutch LSD for it's progressive and predictable nature,among other things.
http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/whats-diff/
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#3566657 - 03/16/09 08:39 AM
Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor
[Re: progressi]
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UglyValiant
Post Master Sr
Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 6364
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
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Again, my points from earlier still stand. Using either different grades of parts (such as powdered sintered vs forged) or different parts suppliers (Mahle vs whoever) doesn't change that they are basically the same engine.
Likewise, having different mounting for different manifolds aren't that uncommon...doesn't change that the basic head design is, again, the same. Now, one interesting thing would be "Could I swap a mitsu head onto a hyundai block?" Again, this would prove beyond a doubt that these engines are for all intents and purposes, identical.
His point on the cam is fairly specious since we don't know in what respects the engineer was talking. Was he comparing cam specs? Doubt it since any reasonable engineer would know they can't blindly look at a cam and derive that the specs are identical....BUT, one can look and reasonably approximate distances b/w journal, journal sizes, length, etc to conclude within reason that the cams are identical enough to swap in place of each other. I'm fairly certain the engineer saw enough to conclude it's a safe bet.
Let's offer another analogy, since there is a billion left to use: The gen 1 350 chevy and L98's. You couldn't simply swap on an intake manifold from the L98 to the gen1 350, nor likewise swap a gen 1 manifold to an L98. Sure, they used different parts for pistons/rods/etc; Hell, you couldn't even simply swap cams among that engine due to the different provisions one had for roller cams...but there is no denying that they are basically the same engine. Take it further to one that's even further differentiated than the gen1 and L98...the gen1 and LT1...yet, for all their differences, still the same basic engine.
All this blog demonstrated is the amount of cognitive dissonance that evo-fan-boi's are experiencing over their precious evo sharing basic engines w/ hyundai's and calibers. Maybe their experiencing side-effects from wearing too much hair gel and axe cologne?
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1979 Dodge Lil' Red Express Truck 1989 Shelby CSX (#500/500) The most powerful production minivan money can buy.
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#3567168 - 03/16/09 11:50 AM
Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor
[Re: SpcNA[ZX]]
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UglyValiant
Post Master Sr
Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 6364
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
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*SNIFF* IT'S NOT THE SAME!!!!
Okay, the mopar 273 v8 and 340 mopar are basically the same engine. Yes, they do use different rods, crank, pistons, valves, different (and uninterchangable) intake manifolds, different exhaust manifolds, different VALVES (omg!!!), blah, blah, blah, blah. Doesn't change either from being basically the SAME engine.
The ford 302 and the mopar 273 are different engines too. They TOO use different rods, pistons, intake manifolds (uninterchangable too!), different exhaust manifolds, different valves, blah blah blah blah blah. Oh, sure...they're both v8's, NA, use distributers, and are generally mounted at the front of vehicles, so there going to be some similarities.
Listen, they're world motors. They are basically the same engine. I didn't say each were as capable, nor did I even imply it (although basically, they are). To act as if they're as related as a honda and toyota 4 cylinders is fucking retarded. To act as if they are only distant cousins is fucking retarded. They are two brothers as similar as can be without being identical.
This is the nature of engine families...stop grasping at straws and learn to live with it.
I mean, it's hilarious...watching the mitsu fanboi's squirm is like watching Paris Hilton refusing to accept a sister she discovers living in a trailer park; "Like, omg! she's so....*bleh*!"
_________________________
1979 Dodge Lil' Red Express Truck 1989 Shelby CSX (#500/500) The most powerful production minivan money can buy.
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#3567285 - 03/16/09 12:25 PM
Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor
[Re: orangegrey]
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skierd
Post Master Sr
Registered: 08/21/01
Posts: 9104
Loc: Fairbanks, AK
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3. The LSD in the sports version is a gear type LSD and not a clutch type.
Yeah, those Torsens are such garbage. I'm sure everybody was looking forward to rebuilding their clutch pack diffs every few years.
Or every few events, if you're an autocrosser. Gear-type FTW for cars that are driven on the street as well as raced.
Still, for $27k I think I'd rather have a new mustang.
Edited by skierd (03/16/09 12:35 PM)
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#3567325 - 03/16/09 12:37 PM
Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor
[Re: UglyValiant]
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CommonGutterTrash
This user is more useless than a half-baked compost pile.
Post Master Sr
Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 6437
Loc: Boston MA
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This sounds a LOT like the 4g64 vs 4gcs pretty much the Only similarity was the block-casting, And even THEN, there were huge differences.
Although.. a 4g64 crank, rods, and pistons meant you got a tall-deck big-bore motor that mitsu never actually made.
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Craig R. 2000 9-5 Gary Fisher Wagon 1995 850 T-5R 1996 Galant AIM = gclipse96
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#3567406 - 03/16/09 01:08 PM
Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor
[Re: UglyValiant]
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progressi
Post Master Sr
Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 9134
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Um,Eric Hsu,IIRC is a guy that runs a shop that mods alot of stuff other than Mitsus,in fact I think they do a ton of Subie stuff. Im sure someone else knows this. I think they have a Genesis on order to build parts for it.
Seems to me that there were alot of posts saying "a tune and bolt-ons=100whp like the Evo,cuz it's the same". Doesnt appear that way.
As far as Mitsu pedigree? LOL Im not so concerned by that. DSMs danced with Neons in the past.
Edit:XS engineering's site shows that they have a Skyline project cars,support Subaru WRX,and Evos. Eric Hsu being a jaded Evo fanboy? I dont think so. I thought it was an interesting writeup.
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#3567731 - 03/16/09 03:14 PM
Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor
[Re: UglyValiant]
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SpcNA[ZX]
Sr Member
Registered: 12/08/00
Posts: 1218
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
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I mean, it's hilarious...watching the mitsu fanboi's squirm is like watching Paris Hilton refusing to accept a sister she discovers living in a trailer park; "Like, omg! she's so....*bleh*!"
Apparently you missed the part where I said I'm eagerly anticipating the 2.0t R-Spec's release, and affirmed that sure they're all "based" off the world motor platform.
If you think I'm brand-uppity because I have a few mitsu's in my past then you're obviously misinformed. I think the ONLY thing they got right was the motor in ANY mitsu I've owned, and even then they have their quirks. All these people saying "It's g0t an EbO Mot0r DoG!" are just wrong, are they similar? Sure thing, they're about as similar as a motor can be with different rods, pistons, block, head, etc. Kinda like Danny DeVito and Arnie in twins Alright, that's stretching it but as I said before for as many similarities there are differences. Do I care? Nah not really, I'm just anxious to see how the 2.0t responds to mods
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'92 Galant VR-4 '93 Nissan 300ZX
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#3567874 - 03/16/09 04:00 PM
Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor
[Re: SpcNA[ZX]]
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Chris92Sc2
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 12/21/00
Posts: 13705
Loc: MI USA
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Oohhh, I just dropped some Mahles in my car! Now I can make Evo type power!!!
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#3567976 - 03/16/09 04:34 PM
Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor
[Re: Chris92Sc2]
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cliff st-clair
Post Master Sr
Registered: 01/03/00
Posts: 6376
Loc: Queens Village, NY
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People were concerned about the similarities because of power potential. Now that we see that the pistons and rods are not the same, I think it is impossible to say they are the same. I am disappointed. I was expecting the 2.0t to possibly handle 350whp. It doesn't seem like that is going to be the case. Oh well...
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#3568241 - 03/16/09 05:57 PM
Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor
[Re: Driven]
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CommonGutterTrash
This user is more useless than a half-baked compost pile.
Post Master Sr
Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 6437
Loc: Boston MA
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yes. I'm like 37% sure. the only way it's a "no" is if hyundai uses a different batch of Sensors/locations
They most-likely use the same motor-mounts. that's the idea, isn't it?
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Craig R. 2000 9-5 Gary Fisher Wagon 1995 850 T-5R 1996 Galant AIM = gclipse96
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#3568520 - 03/16/09 07:34 PM
Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor
[Re: Euphoricuck]
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cliff st-clair
Post Master Sr
Registered: 01/03/00
Posts: 6376
Loc: Queens Village, NY
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I think it's going to be hard to make over 300whp, based on what I've read so far. I am worried about hyundai putting some thin ass rods in there, and a bunch of other cheap parts, which explains why the car is so cheap. Moreover, the turbo is way too small to perform at that power level.
I was hoping this car would be like the old DSM; minor tweaks and big power. My faith is no longer.
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03' 350z 04' Mazda 3 s
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#3569452 - 03/17/09 02:07 AM
Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor
[Re: SpcNA[ZX]]
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Yellow4g63
Jr Member
Registered: 07/09/00
Posts: 442
Loc: Moreno Valley, Ca
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#3570252 - 03/17/09 12:14 PM
Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor
[Re: CLAY'S 99SI]
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cliff st-clair
Post Master Sr
Registered: 01/03/00
Posts: 6376
Loc: Queens Village, NY
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Wow..those rods look pretty beefy for sure. We will have to wait I guess... The verdict is not out yet.
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03' 350z 04' Mazda 3 s
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#3572625 - 03/18/09 01:11 AM
Re: The definitive post on the Hyundai Genesis motor
[Re: orangegrey]
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progressi
Post Master Sr
Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 9134
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Euphoric,is this puke and die?
If it is,is it Mitsu's fault?
Will it be responsive at 1200 rpm?
And finally,would it be fun to drive?
Before the "other" Euphy comes out,Im just messing with you.
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