#8787530 - 09/12/16 08:57 AM
New Milk Thread and Track day update :D
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4age
XD XD XD XD
Post Master Sr
Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 3969
Loc: North York, Ontario, Canada
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Been probably 6 months now. I got a 328 Touring.
Most boring version possible: premium trim, automatic and xdrive.
For Canada, we never got the rwd wagon, so xdrive was the only choice. And for me, the primary purpose of this car was to haul my bike gear + wife to bike races in comfort with plenty of room to spare. This car does that in spades 
The original car out of the box didn't drive all that well - tons of feel through the steering, and the motor is a darn peach. But the car has loaded with a bunch of fun sapping features that BMW baked into the xdrive setup. This like BMW variably boosting brake pressure depending on the speed you are going and amount of pedal travel used in the brake. This made for inconsistent braking and the pedal firming up at different spots in the range of travel depending on what speed you hit the brakes at.
It also tries hard to vector power from front to rear axles multiple times in a corner when you're getting the car loose. The transfer case simply bangs the clutch and it makes for abrupt power transfer - the car shifts front and rear each time the clutches are hit. It's like a mild clutch kick. really bad. That and it had brake vectoring and reduces engine power when it calculates when the brakes are overheating (calculates! Not measured!). I coded all of this stuff off, and now it operates with a static 40:60 rear biased awd power distribution, and no brake funkiness. Car drives better.
Car is updated with paddle shifter retrofit, Bilstien stocks and camber plates. Oh and it has the intake manifold and tune out of a 330i - making it a 330i motor (that is the only difference - this wagon now has 255hp vs 230hp originally)
Track video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDxCVvs5v-s
As can be seen on the track video - especially at around 3:42, the car rotates quite a lot on entry. Get it setup right for a corner with trail braking, and the back end will rotate very nicely. I set it up like a fwd car (-2.5f, -1r camber, -0.1f, 0.1r toe), and note that the front end toes out under compression (and rear toes out on lift), so the whole car gets loose in a trail braking situation. Hillariously fun on track.
Above, you can see me setting it up for a corner. Look how loaded the front tires are and unloaded the back is - and the camber difference. The back end is near 0 in that situation...and toe would be about 0 as well! I previously had the car lowered - looked sick...however, it drove like ass. Xdrive has reduced shock travel - and despite putting short stroke shocks on it, it bottomed out everywhere. On track, it would ride the bump stops and randomly understeer out of no where. I ended up selling the lowering springs (Eibachs) and went back to the stock xdrive springs. Car is way way way way better. Below is when the car was lowered...it did look damn cool doe.
Up next is m sport bumpers. It already has a bmw performance wheel, so I may as well continue the sport package retro fit and grab the sport seats too  Oh and oil cooler. Car pulls timing on the track big time. Get's way too hot. I removed one of the under panels beneath the transmission and it helped big time - though timing is still pulled. Oil temps get too high, and the cooling system is burdened with cooling both the motor and transmission together.
Car drives great though, and is fun. Probably the only driver focused wagon in existence (ok - other than the Polestar).
For the nerdy, best lap time on ddt was 1:50.
This is on BFG SC2's, which are 380 tread wear tires. With real tires, it'll be in the 1:48 range no problem.
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#8787544 - 09/12/16 09:06 AM
Re: New Milk Thread and Track day update :D
[Re: 4age]
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Denis Si
Post Master
Registered: 04/11/01
Posts: 2798
Loc: T.O.
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Nice. Love the wagon. Need to the daycare for kids to end so I can start looking at German milk myself
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#8787545 - 09/12/16 09:07 AM
Re: New Milk Thread and Track day update :D
[Re: Denis Si]
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Choco 'Nuck
Proud Member of BLM
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 07/10/01
Posts: 17568
Loc: Somewhere out there
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I'm loving it. Euphoric 2.0 
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#8787756 - 09/12/16 11:48 AM
Re: New Milk Thread and Track day update :D
[Re: 4age]
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Screamin Type ARGH!
High Value Poster
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 02/20/01
Posts: 47668
Loc: T.O. - Canaduh
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haha nice man.
and cool starry bra.
those front brakes gonna wear out quick lol. Dunno. This is the first car in a long line of cars where I do not have to worry about the brakes. Pedal is always solid, and brakes hold up even at DDT. It's on stock size rotors with nothing but Ferrodo DS2500 front pads and Castrol SRF fluid. Works perfect on the current setup. No fade all day at DDT. It has factory brake ducts which help a lot. And I removed the rotor splash shields which also help a lot
nice
_________________________
 "Ban low performance drivers, not high performance cars"
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#8787785 - 09/12/16 12:10 PM
Re: New Milk Thread and Track day update :D
[Re: Screamin Type ARGH!]
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zc911
Ferrari4Sale 😎
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 01/01/00
Posts: 16449
Loc: toronto
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#8787836 - 09/12/16 12:41 PM
Re: New Milk Thread and Track day update :D
[Re: zc911]
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LNXGUY
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 08/06/00
Posts: 106943
Loc: Barrie, Ont,
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Awesome! If you need any coding done let me know. Keep an eye out for a set of beige sport seats as well will ya?
_________________________
-Bill The GN would OWN you, your children and your children's children. '09 E90 335 d 
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#8787920 - 09/12/16 01:28 PM
Re: New Milk Thread and Track day update :D
[Re: phoenixrage]
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4age
XD XD XD XD
Post Master Sr
Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 3969
Loc: North York, Ontario, Canada
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Yep!
It was on 120 tread wear tires. Gave my buddy's ITR a good run for the money
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#8787950 - 09/12/16 01:55 PM
Re: New Milk Thread and Track day update :D
[Re: phoenixrage]
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Lafora
Post Master Sr
Registered: 12/16/01
Posts: 4623
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love the fact that you track a wagon :D. that alignment...nice
i'm not sure if that amount of corner entry rotation in some cases actually hurts you more than helps you.
lemme rephrase: i'm sure it hurts, but i'm not sure if you feel the same.
look at the spots where you turn in once and the car tracks beautifully. the spots where turning-in via the nose gets a bit overzealous and it gets......non-ideal, especially in combination corners. a lot of the mid-exit u/s that i see actually started from that (not sure if you felt those u/s places)
question: when it rotates as you turn it on the nose, you have to get quickly back on the throttle to stop the rotation? but you aren't on full throttle?
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#8787993 - 09/12/16 02:34 PM
Re: New Milk Thread and Track day update :D
[Re: Lafora]
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4age
XD XD XD XD
Post Master Sr
Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 3969
Loc: North York, Ontario, Canada
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Lafora has chimed in!!!
I agree - the amount of entry rotation actually hurts in some cases, and slows down the lap overall. It's entertaining though, and I do not mind that it's a sloppy mess. I have no intention to make this wagon competitive - I just want to have a ton of fun out there driving the snot out of this - and mission accomplished as you can see
That said, yes there is mid to exit understeer--this happens as soon as I get back on the throttle. Expected, but also necessary...as I get the car to turn in on the nose as you say (trailing brakes - on brakes until car is pointed to turn-in point, no gas until I want rotation to stop). I do not utilize full throttle to stop the rotation - the car will push too much.
That said, I'm at a loss at how to get the car to drive better. My first outing was dreadful (i have a video of that, but it's a snoozefest) with a more typical alignment one would expect on a rwd biased car. I really wanted it to loosen up on entry so I can get it to play ball...and then play with the gas to get the car to play nice from mid corner to exit.
I don't think I'd need to touch the alignment to get it to play nice - I just need to adjust pressures. But again, it's fun as is, and I have it setup this way purposely. My hot pressures are 36f 41r LOL
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#8788036 - 09/12/16 03:01 PM
Re: New Milk Thread and Track day update :D
[Re: Screamin Type ARGH!]
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4age
XD XD XD XD
Post Master Sr
Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 3969
Loc: North York, Ontario, Canada
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^i dont feel like the front end needs to be touched.
It's dialed and I like the way it behaves. To Cyril's point, the car isn't fast because of over rotation in some instances. But it's fun and engaging
It's the back end that needs to be dialed down, and tire pressures can do a big thing to fix that IMO. I'm actually going to an M3 rear sway bar to get the car to rotate more in lift throttle situations - it currently does not rotate in throttle lift - it only does so under trail braking (talking about 0 elevation here).
EDIT: Problem is combo corners and chicanes as Lafora noted. If the car is already rotating and setup for turn 1, then by turn 2 it's kind of out of shape and understeering on exit...and not ideal to setup for the combo corner. I compensate by either trailing the throttle here (not enough rotation in this scenario doe - which is why i want a bigger rear bar), or by left foot braking to load the nose again. Basically, I'm using the brakes to load the front tires up to get it to "turn on the nose" for the subsequent turn. You can see in the vid I lose time in the s turns and chicanes, but catch everyone up on entry and braking zones 
Edited by 4age (09/12/16 03:05 PM)
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#8788041 - 09/12/16 03:05 PM
Re: New Milk Thread and Track day update :D
[Re: 4age]
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Lafora
Post Master Sr
Registered: 12/16/01
Posts: 4623
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if you want to get rid of the mid-exit u/s, ease off on driving it in on its nose. watch your clip again, every time the turn in isn't affirmative (ie you either turn in gingerly, or you turn it in and have to make a quick adjustment), it washes out by the time you get to the apex and you can't unwind as you want to. interestingly enough, every corner where you CAN turn it in with one firm input, the car just tracks like it's on rails. i won't bore you as to why that happens, but yours is not the first nor the last case that happens. I dare say at this level of driving (ie beginner-intermediate gentleman driver, kids with little car experience regardless of kartiing success) 95% of mid-exit u/s stems from that type of entry behaviour. Tl:DR; if you want to rid of the mid-exit u/s, fix the entry. It'll drive better. you might feel it's less fun, but it'll go where you want it to go when you want it to go.
Second educated guess from your reports and the car's behaviour is the feet are too happy. Either on brakes, or on throttle. GT cars rarely can be driven that way. Karts, yes; formula cars MAYBE (probably not); GT definitely not and I daresay production street cars definitely not. Basically the heavier the cars, and the more compliant the cars, the less you can rock the platform; and every time there's input (wheel, throttle, brake) the platform is being rocked. People who read this probably are thinking "so you're saying there needs to be coasting?" Believe it or not, yes there needs to be coasting. Coasting is when the car handles (and it'll rotate as well), it also lets you get on full power earlier. Name of the game isn't to get on power early, it's to get on FULL power early.
Go on youtube, search DTM, look at Marco Wittmann's recent onboard at race 2 at the nurburgring. I can watch that footwork all day. Confirmation bias aside, if I were to compare that onboard & footwork vs Wickens' footwork at the same race, give me MW's footwork all day, everyday. (one guy finished 3rd, one guy finished 14th btw....even though they're in the top 3 in the driver's standings overall this season)
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#8788055 - 09/12/16 03:17 PM
Re: New Milk Thread and Track day update :D
[Re: Lafora]
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4age
XD XD XD XD
Post Master Sr
Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 3969
Loc: North York, Ontario, Canada
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Thanks. I'm going to search up the Wittmann video you mentioned.
FWIW I don't *think* I am foot happy. I am coasting very often. I don't touch the power until I want the car to track out - usually that happens after I get the car pointed into the apex via trail braking. Thing is, the car pushes on power (open diffs here!), so my steering unwind is not as quick as optimal.
That said, I recognize the issue espeically in combo corners - turning this way is not the fastest way to do it. Totally get it. I am just having a ball out there. I'd rather be slower and have fun, than kick arse and not have fun - my S4 was the latter and I got tired of it quickly. I'll look to be less zealous about trail braking it in all over just to get the ass to come around next time. I'm sure it'll be faster. It's just...... I cannot resist XD XD XD
ESP in the wet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PpGodDX-gg
bahaha. Tires got too much scrub in a couple corners doe.
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#8788061 - 09/12/16 03:21 PM
Re: New Milk Thread and Track day update :D
[Re: 4age]
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Lafora
Post Master Sr
Registered: 12/16/01
Posts: 4623
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still boggles the mind you track a wagon XD
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#8788285 - 09/12/16 07:46 PM
Re: New Milk Thread and Track day update :D
[Re: Lafora]
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JEFFOS
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 01/27/00
Posts: 29150
Loc: Toronto
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Is this car in addition to the s4?
_________________________
-Jeff
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#8788350 - 09/12/16 09:03 PM
Re: New Milk Thread and Track day update :D
[Re: Choco 'Nuck]
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JEFFOS
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 01/27/00
Posts: 29150
Loc: Toronto
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I don't ball at all - I'm homeless
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-Jeff
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#8788560 - 09/13/16 08:07 AM
Re: New Milk Thread and Track day update :D
[Re: 4age]
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Screamin Type ARGH!
High Value Poster
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 02/20/01
Posts: 47668
Loc: T.O. - Canaduh
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Is this car in addition to the s4? No. Stupid but, I traded the S4. I was paying 550 a month to finance something that I grew to not like very much. Not very driver involving and too clinical of a performance drive. It's very capable, but took no skill to go fast. Didn't find it worth while to continue paying for something which I did not enjoy. Got rid of it > got the wagon > pocketed some money and now I have no car payments. Crazy, right? XD Car ADD right here for sure.
almost similar feeling i had with teh STI but in addition it was a gas pig lol.
sounds like you need an AAAAAAARRRGGGHHH 
or better yet get a DD and first gen NSX as track toy
_________________________
"Ban low performance drivers, not high performance cars"
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#8789492 - 09/13/16 10:02 PM
Re: New Milk Thread and Track day update :D
[Re: 4age]
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iamfob
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 09/06/02
Posts: 24697
Loc: Out There
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Is this car in addition to the s4? No. Stupid but, I traded the S4. I was paying 550 a month to finance something that I grew to not like very much. Not very driver involving and too clinical of a performance drive. It's very capable, but took no skill to go fast. Didn't find it worth while to continue paying for something which I did not enjoy. Got rid of it > got the wagon > pocketed some money and now I have no car payments. Crazy, right? XD Car ADD right here for sure.
time for you to go back to basics like Risky
maybe go back to a 91 EF Civic with no power steering, crank windows. Light weight and VTEC...dat feelz
_________________________
 FTMFW!!! 
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#8789964 - 09/14/16 01:54 PM
Re: New Milk Thread and Track day update :D
[Re: Screamin Type ARGH!]
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4age
XD XD XD XD
Post Master Sr
Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 3969
Loc: North York, Ontario, Canada
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Is this car in addition to the s4? No. Stupid but, I traded the S4. I was paying 550 a month to finance something that I grew to not like very much. Not very driver involving and too clinical of a performance drive. It's very capable, but took no skill to go fast. Didn't find it worth while to continue paying for something which I did not enjoy. Got rid of it > got the wagon > pocketed some money and now I have no car payments. Crazy, right? XD Car ADD right here for sure. almost similar feeling i had with teh STI but in addition it was a gas pig lol. sounds like you need an AAAAAAARRRGGGHHH or better yet get a DD and first gen NSX as track toy
I actually seriously think about the NSX.
But in reality, if you had one, would you track it?
With most groups - I probably wouldn't due to lack of safety. That's not exactly a car that is easily fixable (body wise) if something went awry. Would need to go to baller track days with less cars/people and more open track
BTW a guy following the wagon on track said I lift the inside rear tire everywhere. Bahaha. On stock sways. Brilliant. I tried it on the street and yup, you can feel it. And if you have the wheel in the air and get on the gas > and the wheel drops back down, there will be a jolt from the drive line shock and the wheel hitting the tarmac with traction again. A bmw that tripods...in the back. Yes XD XD XD
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#8790043 - 09/14/16 02:49 PM
Re: New Milk Thread and Track day update :D
[Re: 4age]
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LNXGUY
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 08/06/00
Posts: 106943
Loc: Barrie, Ont,
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I'd love to track the 335d but I'd be afraid I'd bust something 
_________________________
-Bill The GN would OWN you, your children and your children's children. '09 E90 335 d
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#8790111 - 09/14/16 03:40 PM
Re: New Milk Thread and Track day update :D
[Re: 4age]
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Risky Business
Provides a Great Work Environment. he/him
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 05/17/10
Posts: 44790
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track days are dirt cheap
Said no one ever
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#8790162 - 09/14/16 04:28 PM
Re: New Milk Thread and Track day update :D
[Re: Risky Business]
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Choco 'Nuck
Proud Member of BLM
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 07/10/01
Posts: 17568
Loc: Somewhere out there
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track days are dirt cheap Said no one ever
Lulz, stock pads will be cooked on the 335d after a few laps
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