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#8032179 - 01/05/15 03:09 PM Squat Program Help
nato2377 Offline
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Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 3430
Loc: Denver, CO
So I need to start doing some weight training for cycling this year. By mid April i need to be able to squat 80% of my body weight for 3 sets of 50 in an effort to help my climbing power. My friend who used to be a pro, told me to just set it up as a pyramid to get to that goal, which i have a vague idea of what he means but my question is where do i start weight wise and how do i build up to where i need to be? im 5'9", 160, im a pro mountain biker so im in good shape and i ride 5500+ miles a year so im not a weakling and already have pretty big thighs..im not looking to gain mass as much as endurance. thanks. sorry for the newbish question but all ive done for working out the past 3 years is just ride my brains out and no lifting so kinda clueless where to start
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#8032200 - 01/05/15 03:15 PM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: nato2377]
DieZel Offline
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Registered: 07/16/06
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Loc: 18th green
50 reps in 1 set...? @ 80% of your bw...?

sounds fucking brutal...

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#8032208 - 01/05/15 03:18 PM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: DieZel]
nato2377 Offline
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Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 3430
Loc: Denver, CO
well i have to take his advice with a grain of salt. when we was racing he lived at home with his parents, had a part time job, was trying to make a career of cycling and therefore had no life. im just trying to be a weekend warrior pro that is somewhat competitive at the big races since i want to have a life. im sure if i can do 50-60% that will be satisfactory and better than nothing. i thought that sounded excessive too lol
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#8032414 - 01/05/15 04:53 PM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: nato2377]
137 Offline
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Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 41748
Loc: Newsomville, CA
I would start by learning how to properly squat and hitting depth getting stretch reflex, you don't just show up to the gym and know how to squat, so that's problem number

1. and while doing 80 percent of your bodyweight is only 128lbs. If you can't do that already I'd be amazed.

2. start slow, 5x5 is normally best, or you can do 5x3x1 or 7/5/3 I think the other one is.

just follow a rep scheme and change the intensity all week.

work your way up to squatting 3 times a week.

What you'll need to do is establish a 1 rep max or estimate a 1 rep max based off of a squat that you can do for 3 reps but not 4. So for sure you'd have to fail if you'd try a 4th.

then take 95% of that number say 130lbs roughly about 120lbs (you'll have to round off in 2.5 or 5lb increments. so 122.5 would be more accurate.

1st day you'd come in and squat 65-70% for 4x7-8 reps, on that day do front squats as well 2x7 around the same %

2nd day come in and do 6x3 around 75%

3rd day if you can make your way to it. 5x2, 5x1, 7x1 of around 85%

in 4 weeks do 95% for as many reps as possible cap is 10.

adjust your next training cycle with the estimated 1rm of that number (there are plenty of calculators on the internet to help you with this)

leg accessories.

bulgarian split squat
single leg press
calf raises
hamstring curls.

all of those at about 3x10 up to an optimally heavy weight that you can manage for 3 sets and slowly bump it up as you get stronger.

that's about as cookie cutter as you can get.

otherwise you can just get a 40lb medicine ball for 200 bucks and do wall balls 10x10 3 times a week. (google that) and it should build the reactive muscle you want.
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#8032461 - 01/05/15 05:27 PM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: 137]
gamby Offline
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Registered: 11/01/99
Posts: 40865
Loc: RI
 Originally Posted By: 137
I would start by learning how to properly squat and hitting depth getting stretch reflex, you don't just show up to the gym and know how to squat, so that's problem number

1. and while doing 80 percent of your bodyweight is only 128lbs. If you can't do that already I'd be amazed.

2. start slow, 5x5 is normally best, or you can do 5x3x1 or 7/5/3 I think the other one is.

just follow a rep scheme and change the intensity all week.

work your way up to squatting 3 times a week.

What you'll need to do is establish a 1 rep max or estimate a 1 rep max based off of a squat that you can do for 3 reps but not 4. So for sure you'd have to fail if you'd try a 4th.

then take 95% of that number say 130lbs roughly about 120lbs (you'll have to round off in 2.5 or 5lb increments. so 122.5 would be more accurate.

1st day you'd come in and squat 65-70% for 4x7-8 reps, on that day do front squats as well 2x7 around the same %

2nd day come in and do 6x3 around 75%

3rd day if you can make your way to it. 5x2, 5x1, 7x1 of around 85%

in 4 weeks do 95% for as many reps as possible cap is 10.

adjust your next training cycle with the estimated 1rm of that number (there are plenty of calculators on the internet to help you with this)

leg accessories.

bulgarian split squat
single leg press
calf raises
hamstring curls.

all of those at about 3x10 up to an optimally heavy weight that you can manage for 3 sets and slowly bump it up as you get stronger.

that's about as cookie cutter as you can get.

otherwise you can just get a 40lb medicine ball for 200 bucks and do wall balls 10x10 3 times a week. (google that) and it should build the reactive muscle you want.




God damn, that's a great post. \:\)
_________________________
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gamby

still have an EM1--go figure






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#8032508 - 01/05/15 05:58 PM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: gamby]
WNDYCTYone Offline
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Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 47646
Loc: CHICAGO
Maybe a Smolov routine? Dunno, that sounds horrible, lol. I did 30 reps with 135 pounds and that fucking sucked. Couldn't imagine what getting to 50 reps would be like.
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#8032522 - 01/05/15 06:08 PM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: WNDYCTYone]
DieZel Offline
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Registered: 07/16/06
Posts: 18220
Loc: 18th green
 Originally Posted By: WNDYCTYone
Maybe a Smolov routine? Dunno, that sounds horrible, lol. I did 30 reps with 135 pounds and that fucking sucked. Couldn't imagine what getting to 50 reps would be like.


i've squatted 135 for 30 reps as well, but I was like 190lbs at that point, and i seriously thought I was going to die...

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#8032544 - 01/05/15 06:29 PM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: DieZel]
nato2377 Offline
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Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 3430
Loc: Denver, CO
his exact word were " if you ever want to be a climber you need to be able to do at least 80% bodyweight for 50 reps" lol

im never going to be a climber because im too heavy so ill just adjust to a more realistic level

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#8032683 - 01/05/15 08:21 PM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: nato2377]
DieZel Offline
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Registered: 07/16/06
Posts: 18220
Loc: 18th green
I think he's jerking you around... but the squat endurance would be beneficial to hill climbing I would imagine...
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#8032720 - 01/05/15 08:49 PM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: DieZel]
nato2377 Offline
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Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 3430
Loc: Denver, CO
nah i dont think hes jerking me around. he had a pro contract back in the day, he knows his stuff and hes a certified level 2 coach... i just think he forgets that i'm just trying to be a weekend warrior at this. the stuff he is recommending is what you need to be to be a top world pro, which he was trying to be and i think he forgets that

thanks for the advice 137, ill work on it and see how it goes.

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#8032959 - 01/06/15 12:09 AM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: nato2377]
Silock Moderator Offline
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Registered: 01/23/00
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Loc: Jayhawk Country
If you want to be a good climber, you need to practice climbing.

It's fine if you want to work on your squat, but there's no substitute for actually doing it.

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#8033000 - 01/06/15 12:48 AM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: Silock]
gamby Offline
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Registered: 11/01/99
Posts: 40865
Loc: RI
To nato's credit, he's already quite the motherfucker at climbing at the moment.

It's funny, Chris Carmichael (mega cycling coach) has gone back and forth in his opinion of whether powerlifting is beneficial to cyclists in the end. I've read stuff of his where he said along the lines what Silock said. His angle is "it can't hurt, but don't expect miracles".

I guess it would be smart in the off-season, but might contribute to overtraining in the "on" season.
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#8033019 - 01/06/15 01:14 AM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: gamby]
Silock Moderator Offline
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Just seems like there are better uses of time and training if you're just trying to weekend warrior it is all.
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#8033026 - 01/06/15 01:22 AM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: gamby]
Rumbelstiltskin Offline
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Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 8757
Loc: So Cal
heavy 20 rep squats and don't forget about deadlifts. I'd think deads would help more in cycling
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#8033254 - 01/06/15 09:51 AM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: Rumbelstiltskin]
The Mighty BellRacer Offline
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i mean, 50 squats with no added weight isn't exactly easy.
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#8033273 - 01/06/15 10:03 AM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: gamby]
dirtyS13drifta
Unregistered



 Originally Posted By: g@mbola
To nato's credit, he's already quite the motherfucker at climbing at the moment.

It's funny, Chris Carmichael (mega cycling coach) has gone back and forth in his opinion of whether powerlifting is beneficial to cyclists in the end. I've read stuff of his where he said along the lines what Silock said. His angle is "it can't hurt, but don't expect miracles".

I guess it would be smart in the off-season, but might contribute to overtraining in the "on" season.


Yeah, it reminds me a bit of climbing. You can spend hours and hours and hours building grip strength using hang-boards, ladder-board, grip trainers, etc.
But it's only a few climbers that are truly limited by grip strength, in fact many blame grip strength when it's over-reliance on upper body that's the issue. And nothing beats actually climbing.


I don't know if 50reps even counts as "powerlifting", it also seems like a good recipe for bad form and an injury.

I mean I know climbing on a bike is brutal and requires strength, as well as lactic threshold. But this is one of those things where specificity seems key.

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#8033530 - 01/06/15 12:20 PM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: ]
gamby Offline
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Registered: 11/01/99
Posts: 40865
Loc: RI
 Originally Posted By: dirtyS13drifta

I don't know if 50reps even counts as "powerlifting", it also seems like a good recipe for bad form and an injury.



Don't mind me--I'm using the term "powerlifting" broadly, as squats and deads are being mentioned in this thread. Actual weight lifted notwithstanding. \:\)
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still have an EM1--go figure






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#8033623 - 01/06/15 01:20 PM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: Silock]
nato2377 Offline
Post Master Sr


Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 3430
Loc: Denver, CO
 Originally Posted By: Silock
Just seems like there are better uses of time and training if you're just trying to weekend warrior it is all.


I already ride/train 450+ hours a year, this is to help supplement the training and help me produce more watts. this is just during winter since obviously outside training isnt the best in PA in winter. once race season starts, no more lifting. Weekend warrior is prob bad wording as I turned pro at the start of december, so i'm in no way a weekend warrior. i meant more like, i want to be able to show up at 2-3 UCI Elite races throughout the year and be somewhat "competitive". i'm not a 135lb twig mega climber so in return i need to make more power to compensate


Edited by nato2377 (01/06/15 01:24 PM)

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#8033628 - 01/06/15 01:23 PM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: gamby]
nato2377 Offline
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Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 3430
Loc: Denver, CO
 Originally Posted By: g@mbola
I guess it would be smart in the off-season, but might contribute to overtraining in the "on" season.


yeah its just a off-season thing since obviously 10+ hours outdoors in PA winter isnt really feasible.

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#8033632 - 01/06/15 01:26 PM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: Rumbelstiltskin]
nato2377 Offline
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Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 3430
Loc: Denver, CO
 Originally Posted By: Rumble
heavy 20 rep squats and don't forget about deadlifts. I'd think deads would help more in cycling


thanks! i googled it a bit and it seems lower reps would be better, like you suggested, so ill try that. He also said about deads so I'm going to do them as well


Edited by nato2377 (01/06/15 01:26 PM)

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#8033643 - 01/06/15 01:37 PM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: Silock]
DieZel Offline
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Registered: 07/16/06
Posts: 18220
Loc: 18th green
 Originally Posted By: Silock
If you want to be a good climber, you need to practice climbing.

It's fine if you want to work on your squat, but there's no substitute for actually doing it.


yes, practice the actual movement you want to improve... this astonishingly makes perfect fucking sense...

whooodah thunk it...?

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#8033656 - 01/06/15 01:47 PM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: DieZel]
nato2377 Offline
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Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 3430
Loc: Denver, CO
climbing really has a lot more to do with your watt/kg ratio then doing hours oh hills repeats..which is why true climbers weigh like 125-135lbs...they dont practice hills anymore then anyone else on the team with exception of guys who are climbing specialists.
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#8033667 - 01/06/15 01:54 PM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: nato2377]
DieZel Offline
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Registered: 07/16/06
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Loc: 18th green
while a squat program would likely serve some purpose, squatting and the movement your legs make while on the bike is not the same... of course getting out this time of the year is not really an option...
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#8033684 - 01/06/15 02:07 PM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: DieZel]
nato2377 Offline
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Registered: 07/09/07
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Loc: Denver, CO
agreed its not the same, but climbing requires the use of your quads and hamstrings, so strengthening those muscles would be beneficial so you can push down on them harder, no?

im supposed to do deadlifts as well.

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#8033694 - 01/06/15 02:15 PM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: nato2377]
DieZel Offline
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Registered: 07/16/06
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Loc: 18th green
yeah definitely... i'd certainly want to do a mix of low rep power and higher rep endurance training...
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#8033714 - 01/06/15 02:24 PM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: DieZel]
nato2377 Offline
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Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 3430
Loc: Denver, CO
cool, thats what ill work on then as i need the power to make more watts, yet i need the endurance to be able to hold that power for a sustainable climb. thanks for the input!
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#8033764 - 01/06/15 02:51 PM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: nato2377]
Silock Moderator Offline
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Loc: Jayhawk Country
If all you're worried about is power production, I would not do squats, especially to high reps on a consistent basis. It's not your legs that will take a beating, although they will. But your lower back and core could end up doing some movement patterns that aren't so great.

Maybe something like leg press with those high reps as a supplement to doing low rep squats. I also wouldn't do high rep deads, either. I would stick to low rep deads and then hamstring curl machine for the high rep stuff.

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#8033811 - 01/06/15 03:14 PM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: Silock]
nato2377 Offline
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Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 3430
Loc: Denver, CO
im just looking to increase leg strength as much as possible without adding to much mass. i want strength endurance.

cool, plan is low rep squats and deads, and higher reps on leg press. i think 50 is overkill so ill shoot for like 30 or so.

thanks for your input too

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#8034547 - 01/06/15 11:20 PM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: nato2377]
gamby Offline
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Registered: 11/01/99
Posts: 40865
Loc: RI
This seems like an intelligently-writen article about/against leg press for MTB training. It got a bit TL;DR for me tho.

http://www.bikejames.com/strength/leg-press-the-devil/
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gamby

still have an EM1--go figure






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#8034638 - 01/07/15 12:57 AM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: gamby]
Silock Moderator Offline
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Registered: 01/23/00
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Loc: Jayhawk Country
That guy is . . . a bit ignorant.

"Remember that bodybuilders have no need for real strength;"

His point about not developing maximal strength using leg press is fine, but as long as you treat the exercise as the assistance exercise it is meant to be, then it's totally fine.

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#8035457 - 01/07/15 01:53 PM Re: Squat Program Help [Re: Silock]
DieZel Offline
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Registered: 07/16/06
Posts: 18220
Loc: 18th green
 Originally Posted By: Silock
That guy is . . . a bit ignorant.

"Remember that bodybuilders have no need for real strength;"



Lol, yeah cause they grow muscle by not developing strength over time... #ok

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