#7803173 - 08/02/14 11:35 PM
Re: Cyclists that race - training
[Re: Risky Business]
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gamby
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Registered: 11/01/99
Posts: 40865
Loc: RI
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Cycling doesn't require talent, there is no skill (talking about road here, not mtb). You get out what you put into it. 
I kill myself to be mid-pack at my weekly TT while my friend Sarah will show up with minimal training and a shit diet and be faster than me. Natural talent can translate to the ability to turn the pedals.
Same reason Chris Horner can be riding in grand tours at 42 and eat a shit diet. Well, one reason. He does have a multi-million dollar effort backing him, too. 
_________________________
___________________________________ gamby still have an EM1--go figure 
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#7803514 - 08/03/14 12:08 PM
Re: Cyclists that race - training
[Re: The Mighty BellRacer]
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Risky Business
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no aero helmet doe?
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#7803583 - 08/03/14 01:00 PM
Re: Cyclists that race - training
[Re: Risky Business]
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stickaz_old
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Registered: 02/04/01
Posts: 56459
Loc: Nor Cal, Hella hurr durr
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I suppose we are also presuming Lycra and shaving too
_________________________
Swim->Bike->Cry "I can see that nurses head bobbing around going "I AINT CANCELIN MUH PLANS, FUCK A CDC. WHO DEY ANYWAY NAH MEEN? IMA GO SEE MUH BOO" -johnso 
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#7803589 - 08/03/14 01:03 PM
Re: Cyclists that race - training
[Re: Risky Business]
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nato2377
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Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 3471
Loc: Denver, CO
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watch the last 3Km of Stage 8 of The Tour of California, shot from John Degankalbs bike and tell me there is no skill involved lol you have to have some serious bike handling skills to be bumping other dudes and riding a inch off their wheel in a pack of 40 doing 35mph. descending takes skill. there is a lot of skill required to ride a road bike fast/efficient/in a pack, but its different kinds of skill compared to mtb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeCRnFq_9Lo
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#7803663 - 08/03/14 02:09 PM
Re: Cyclists that race - training
[Re: nato2377]
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Risky Business
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I agree there is some skill especially in group riding, I've been "handed" before 
Just saying in general your speed in a straight line is directly reflective of the effort you've put in doing the same thing over and over (riding) which requires no skill. To be a *better* cyclist means being a faster one, and being fast doesn't require talent, it's a quantifiable measure not expressed via talent.
I will stop rambling now
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#7803974 - 08/03/14 10:56 PM
Re: Cyclists that race - training
[Re: Risky Business]
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gamby
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Registered: 11/01/99
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Loc: RI
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To be a *better* cyclist means being a faster one, and being fast doesn't require talent, it's a quantifiable measure not expressed via talent.
...and there are those who have the athletic talent to spin those cranks harder/faster than others. I could train forever and not be as fast as nato.
_________________________
___________________________________ gamby still have an EM1--go figure
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#7804056 - 08/04/14 01:07 AM
Re: Cyclists that race - training
[Re: bt0]
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Risky Business
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Just saying in general your speed in a straight line is directly reflective of the effort you've put in doing the same thing over and over (riding) which requires no skill. To be a *better* cyclist means being a faster one, and being fast doesn't require talent, it's a quantifiable measure not expressed via talent.
I will stop rambling now
It's a good thing cycling consists entirely of straight lines  Someone sign this guy up for a crit
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#7804058 - 08/04/14 01:09 AM
Re: Cyclists that race - training
[Re: gamby]
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Risky Business
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To be a *better* cyclist means being a faster one, and being fast doesn't require talent, it's a quantifiable measure not expressed via talent.
...and there are those who have the athletic talent to spin those cranks harder/faster than others. I could train forever and not be as fast as nato.
We are all wired different, some are more athletic than others...wouldn't chalk it up to talent doe.
It's also hard to compare "would be" abilities of a 40+ year old vs. someone at their peak in their late 20's.
Nato is a beast and he is very quick, but that level isn't unreachable imo. I know I will never get there because I don't have the desire or the want to put in the time (I am a recreational cyclist, not competitive), but it's definitely not unattainable. Pro levels on the other hand i will agree, some of that shit is out of this world and I don't know how it's humanly possible to achieve. bout dat doping doe
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#7804077 - 08/04/14 02:05 AM
Re: Cyclists that race - training
[Re: Risky Business]
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bt0
Post Master Sr
Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 7284
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I hope you're facepalming your own scarcely informed views.
You can make the same claim about almost anything, if you take a myopic view that omits all other facets and act like it happens in a straight line, on a level course, with no debris or obstacles.
But no competitions are ever like that. Especially races, the more people you have involved.
If you have a road race with a varied field, and person A just mashes pedals and has no technique or tactics, while person B is 95% the athlete person A is but employs group race tactics & techniques, B will beat A more often than not.
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#7804270 - 08/04/14 09:14 AM
Re: Cyclists that race - training
[Re: bt0]
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Risky Business
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I hope you're facepalming your own scarcely informed views.
You can make the same claim about almost anything, if you take a myopic view that omits all other facets and act like it happens in a straight line, on a level course, with no debris or obstacles.
But no competitions are ever like that. Especially races, the more people you have involved.
If you have a road race with a varied field, and person A just mashes pedals and has no technique or tactics, while person B is 95% the athlete person A is but employs group race tactics & techniques, B will beat A more often than not.
oh I get it, so you'd put your money on the guy with the mad handling skillz in the twistiez and not the guy with the strong legs/endurance. Got it.
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#7804423 - 08/04/14 10:39 AM
Re: Cyclists that race - training
[Re: Risky Business]
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gamby
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Registered: 11/01/99
Posts: 40865
Loc: RI
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It's also hard to compare "would be" abilities of a 40+ year old vs. someone at their peak in their late 20's. Nato is a beast and he is very quick, but that level isn't unreachable imo. I know I will never get there because I don't have the desire or the want to put in the time (I am a recreational cyclist, not competitive), but it's definitely not unattainable. Pro levels on the other hand i will agree, some of that shit is out of this world and I don't know how it's humanly possible to achieve. bout dat doping doe
I'm fairly certain that if I were training hard at 26, I still wouldn't be as fast as nato. I accepted long ago that I'm a marginal/dreadfully average athlete.
_________________________
___________________________________ gamby still have an EM1--go figure
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#7804462 - 08/04/14 11:02 AM
Re: Cyclists that race - training
[Re: Risky Business]
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bt0
Post Master Sr
Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 7284
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I hope you're facepalming your own scarcely informed views.
You can make the same claim about almost anything, if you take a myopic view that omits all other facets and act like it happens in a straight line, on a level course, with no debris or obstacles.
But no competitions are ever like that. Especially races, the more people you have involved.
If you have a road race with a varied field, and person A just mashes pedals and has no technique or tactics, while person B is 95% the athlete person A is but employs group race tactics & techniques, B will beat A more often than not. oh I get it, so you'd put your money on the guy with the mad handling skillz in the twistiez and not the guy with the strong legs/endurance. Got it.
No, there's more to it than that. Smarter riders don't have to exert as much effort for the same result.
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#7804639 - 08/04/14 12:42 PM
Re: Cyclists that race - training
[Re: bt0]
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nato2377
Post Master Sr
Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 3471
Loc: Denver, CO
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I hope you're facepalming your own scarcely informed views.
You can make the same claim about almost anything, if you take a myopic view that omits all other facets and act like it happens in a straight line, on a level course, with no debris or obstacles.
But no competitions are ever like that. Especially races, the more people you have involved.
If you have a road race with a varied field, and person A just mashes pedals and has no technique or tactics, while person B is 95% the athlete person A is but employs group race tactics & techniques, B will beat A more often than not. oh I get it, so you'd put your money on the guy with the mad handling skillz in the twistiez and not the guy with the strong legs/endurance. Got it. No, there's more to it than that. Smarter riders don't have to exert as much effort for the same result.
exactly. its usually the smartest rider who wins, rather than the strongest. doenst matter how strong you are if you cant navigate turns to stay with the peloton, cant negotiate the peloton to position yourself in the right spot, if you were dumb and did too much work throughout the race and have no sprint left...etc. also,how do you define strong? stong sprinter, climber, TT'er .. each type of rider has a slightly different skill set to be fast. getting faster isnt always about just riding more. especially in mtb.
i get what you are trying to say though risky, and i sorta agree with you in the road aspect.
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#7804681 - 08/04/14 01:04 PM
Re: Cyclists that race - training
[Re: bt0]
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Risky Business
Provides a Great Work Environment.
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 05/17/10
Posts: 45755
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I hope you're facepalming your own scarcely informed views.
You can make the same claim about almost anything, if you take a myopic view that omits all other facets and act like it happens in a straight line, on a level course, with no debris or obstacles.
But no competitions are ever like that. Especially races, the more people you have involved.
If you have a road race with a varied field, and person A just mashes pedals and has no technique or tactics, while person B is 95% the athlete person A is but employs group race tactics & techniques, B will beat A more often than not. oh I get it, so you'd put your money on the guy with the mad handling skillz in the twistiez and not the guy with the strong legs/endurance. Got it. No, there's more to it than that. Smarter riders don't have to exert as much effort for the same result.
Of course there is more to it than that, no one is disputing it. Strategy, some skill, pace, etc.
We are talking road cycling as a sport in respect to talent...relative to other sports/talent as that's the only thing we can benchmark to.
I was responding to gamby since he brought up natural talent in regards to road cycling. He can get better without actually being *talented* as it's more about putting in the work than it is about talent. Try a sport like soccer for example, endurance can be attained by many, but skills/talent are limited and not achievable by all. Basically barrier to entry to competitive road cycling is way lower to those less talented, but are willing to put in the work where as competitive soccer is limited to those who are putting in the work AND are *naturally* talented.
It's not that complicated
Also, I've played competitive sports throughout my life, I've never been a competitive cyclist, but having gotten back into recreational cycling recently it's just my perspective.
If I wanted to get into some races, etc the door is wide open and there is nothing stopping me aside from my own lack of *want* to do it. Can I be as fast as Nato? Who knows, but I am sure if I rode 4x what I currently do to match his effort I can probably get up there.
How many people at 30 can get up say "hey i am going to start playing competitive soccer". None will be worth a shit, because it requires talent/skills on a completely different level that can't be learned in a year, where as cycling *skills* can and hence why *older* people at 30+ and 40+ are getting into it and are making solid progress. Effort = Better cyclist whereas you can put in a shit load of effort into being a good soccer player, if you don't have talent, you will still be shit regardless.
You don't have to agree with me, but I am pretty sure if road cycling had to be rated somewhere on a talent scale of 1 - 10 it would rate towards the bottom.
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#7805061 - 08/04/14 05:50 PM
Re: Cyclists that race - training
[Re: nato2377]
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stickaz_old
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 02/04/01
Posts: 56459
Loc: Nor Cal, Hella hurr durr
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yea I am probably going to disagree as well. Pro Cycling is basically fitness/endurance just like any other distance event [running/swimming]
_________________________
Swim->Bike->Cry "I can see that nurses head bobbing around going "I AINT CANCELIN MUH PLANS, FUCK A CDC. WHO DEY ANYWAY NAH MEEN? IMA GO SEE MUH BOO" -johnso
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#7805084 - 08/04/14 06:13 PM
Re: Cyclists that race - training
[Re: nato2377]
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gamby
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Registered: 11/01/99
Posts: 40865
Loc: RI
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. how many dudes in their 40s do you see being competitive in the pros?
Chris Horner and George Hincapie (before he retired), but yeah.
Risky--mind you--I've made HUGE progress over the last 5 years. Also keep in mind that I was WAY into mountainbiking in the early-to-mid 90's and I still wasn't anything spectacular then. (what's nice is, I still have the bikehandling skills when I do have the occasion to go back into the woods, doe).
I'm thrilled with how far I've taken myself and plan on getting faster. It was very satisfying to be able to hang with the fast riders on last week's shop ride. That's a nice personal feat for me, IMHO. 
_________________________
___________________________________ gamby still have an EM1--go figure
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#7805137 - 08/04/14 06:54 PM
Re: Cyclists that race - training
[Re: stickaz_old]
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bt0
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Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 7284
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yea I am probably going to disagree as well. Pro Cycling is basically fitness/endurance just like any other distance event [running/swimming]
Swimming is hugely skill/form intensive.
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#7805197 - 08/04/14 07:53 PM
Re: Cyclists that race - training
[Re: nato2377]
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Risky Business
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in regards to road cycling,in the amateur ranks, yes i would agree with you that you can get better by simply putting in more work and not being naturally skilled/having skills. there are some fast guys in cat3 that cant "ride" worth a shit. once you get to cat2 and above, especially pro, that's not the case anymore...skills become important. some cant learn them and stay cat2/1. others can learn them or natually have the talent and then go pro... not everyone in soccer is naturally talented either..some learned it from a young age and developed the skills over the years, and some it just clicks for. same with cycling.
Bang on, exactly what I am saying. No point comparing pro levels as I have no personal experience but amateur competitive activities for cycling vs soccer is basically all I was comparing.
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#7806799 - 08/05/14 11:08 PM
Re: Cyclists that race - training
[Re: Risky Business]
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gamby
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Registered: 11/01/99
Posts: 40865
Loc: RI
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Put in about the same at the TT tonight. Haven't gotten official time yet, but bike computer was right around 35:57. Pretty hot out, so I felt it. My hamstrings cramped again on the final sprint. 
_________________________
___________________________________ gamby still have an EM1--go figure
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#7809285 - 08/07/14 04:14 PM
Re: Cyclists that race - training
[Re: gamby]
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nato2377
Post Master Sr
Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 3471
Loc: Denver, CO
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had a side wind/quartering head wind most of the way. once i got closer to lancaster i kept hitting every light yellow just far enough away where i couldnt make it, so slowing down and starting up screwed my avg a bit. i hit the city too so i couldnt make a full hour but thats pretty close. take it or leave it!
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#7809350 - 08/07/14 05:09 PM
Re: Cyclists that race - training
[Re: nato2377]
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stickaz_old
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Registered: 02/04/01
Posts: 56459
Loc: Nor Cal, Hella hurr durr
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looks flyin' to me :bow:
I'm guessing I'd end up in the 18.x range hehehe
looks like you were stopped at lights for 5 mins on that run? ouch, sounds like my commute
_________________________
Swim->Bike->Cry "I can see that nurses head bobbing around going "I AINT CANCELIN MUH PLANS, FUCK A CDC. WHO DEY ANYWAY NAH MEEN? IMA GO SEE MUH BOO" -johnso
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#7809801 - 08/08/14 12:10 AM
Re: Cyclists that race - training
[Re: nato2377]
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gamby
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 11/01/99
Posts: 40865
Loc: RI
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That's hummin'.
Tonight's group ride got rained out, but a few of us who waited it out at the shop went out for 9 miles on the wet roads just because.
_________________________
___________________________________ gamby still have an EM1--go figure
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#7810528 - 08/08/14 01:24 PM
Re: Cyclists that race - training
[Re: nato2377]
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Risky Business
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