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#66944 - 12/16/04 02:50 AM D16Z6 High Mileage: Turbo, or complete swap?
Wesley Offline
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Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 223
Loc: Southern California
I have a D16Z6 in my 93 Civic Coupe that is about to turn the corner on 200,000 miles. Oddly, it is still running extremely well. While I would normally consider it commom sense to do a swap over a turbo installation on such a high mileage motor, the engine runs so well that I'd like some advice before I make a decision. I'm leaning more toward the swap because it will practically give me the equivalent of a brand new car, since the rest of car, including the exterior, is in immaculate condition. And it seems like turboing a motor of this mileage would cause excessive stress on the engine, leading to a premature death. However, I'm attracted to the idea of turboing it. In my hybrid innocence, a turbo seems like a much easier project than a swap. Is this true? What are the pros and cons of both projects, including the cost, although my budget is relatively high. Thanks.
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#66945 - 12/16/04 11:06 AM Re: D16Z6 High Mileage: Turbo, or complete swap?
b16pwrdeg Offline
Jr Poster


Registered: 08/29/04
Posts: 126
Loc: Central VA
If it was me, I would swap a B-Series in.....I have a JDM B16 in my 95 Civic EX and I absolutely love it. I got my complete swap from hmotorsonline.com for around 2500 including shipping. Before I bought my swap, I was going to turbo my D16Z6 too, I heard they make good power. I was looking into complete turbo kits that were around 3000 i think and included everything (intercooler, fuel system upgrades). The price for my motor install was around the same figure that they had quoted me to put in the turbo kit when that was the route I was going. As far as the high mileage of your current motor, I have a friend who boosted his Ford Escort (Mazda motor of course) with 140K and it runs like a champ. Possibly rebuild the bottom end of the D16 so it will handle the boost better, and strap a turbo on it. I love the sound of his turbo when we go places, the BOV sounds sick......people laugh at his car then he pulls up beside them and lets the BOV go off, and they look really surprised. I hope this helps you some and is not just random babble.
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#66946 - 12/16/04 11:21 AM Re: D16Z6 High Mileage: Turbo, or complete swap?
kyden Offline
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Registered: 12/20/99
Posts: 15406
Loc: Providence, RI
eh, i'd still laugh at him anyways.

but to answer the question, i would rebuild it if you were going turbo.. it might run well now, but the added stress might put it on its last leg..
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#66947 - 12/16/04 03:03 PM Re: D16Z6 High Mileage: Turbo, or complete swap?
Wesley Offline
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Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 223
Loc: Southern California
What would I need to do to rebuild the D16Z6? I'm guessing it would involve replacing some of the internals of the engine? Anything I would have to go to a shop to get done?

HMotorsOnline has a USDM B16A2 complete change over with the motor mounts, shift linkage, and axles with half shaft (what's half shaft?) for $2250. I'm a little less inclined to go the JDM route as attractive as it sounds. I'm worried I wouldn't be able to get the engine smoggable because of what I've heard from other people who swap in JDM engines. What else would I need besides the changeover "kit" from HMotorsOnline to do a swap? I'm hoping to do it myself, and it seems like it would be easy with the complete changeover.

If I were to go turbo, I'm pretty confident I could do the complete installation on my own, since most if not all of it is simply bolting-up. But I'm not so sure I could do the rebuilding myself, since I don't even know what it entails. Would swapping a complete changeover B16A2 in be any harder? It comes with the ECU needed (P30), so does that eliminate most of the wiring problems most people have? Thanks.

b16pwrdeg - How much did you pay to get the swap done? Would you recommend getting it done over doing it myself?

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#66948 - 12/16/04 04:19 PM Re: D16Z6 High Mileage: Turbo, or complete swap?
b16pwrdeg Offline
Jr Poster


Registered: 08/29/04
Posts: 126
Loc: Central VA
To rebuild the D16Z6, I would just go ahead and get "beefier" internals such as new pistons, stronger connecting rods, new gaskets and seals....while the head is off to do the engine internals, maybe a nice port & polish to let it flow alittle easier. I would recommend a shop to put in the new internals unless you are very familiar with the workings of an engine.

If you get the complete changeover, you really don't need anything else to put in the swap. While my swap was out of the car, I went ahead and replaced the timing belt, water pump, belt tensioner, spark plugs, plug wires, distributor cap, and put in an Exedy Organic Clutch and Exedy Lightweight Flywheel. I also had to get a ITR throttle cable, since the stock one wouldn't reach. I've never helped swap a motor, so I don't know how hard it is....I just didn't trust myself to do the wiring. I know for my car, the mechanic had to wire the knock sensor into my wiring harness, so it would work, but that is it. Since you have an EX (I assume since you have a D16Z6), the car is already wired for VTEC, so that's one less thing you would have to wire. I paid around $1000 to get my motor swapped, but it was well worth it for the peace of mind that it was done right. Once again, I would recommend getting a shop to do it unless you are confident that you have the knowledge to rewire some things and do it right. When I was getting my car worked on at the shop that swapped my motor, a guy bought in a civic with an H22A swap and they done it themselves and while they were driving, the motor dropped out of the car and ruined alot of things.....it was going to cost them around 3000 to fix everything, opposed to the 1000 they could have paid to get it done right the first time.

My buddy that boosted his escort done the install himself. He just had to get a local shop to weld the downpipe and make him a couple flanges, but he didn't buy a kit, he just went and got the pieces and done it himself. If you purchase the kit, you shouldn't have any problems installing it yourself.

If you have any more questions that you think I can answer, just ask.

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#66949 - 12/16/04 10:58 PM Re: D16Z6 High Mileage: Turbo, or complete swap?
kyden Offline
Post Master Supreme


Registered: 12/20/99
Posts: 15406
Loc: Providence, RI
you'll be hard pressed to get a jdm motor to pass a visual in cali.. you might have to go with a b16a3 out of a del sol.. but then again a lot of people in cali have jdm swaps..

a half shaft on a honda connects the driver side axle to the transmission.. because it has equal length axles.. the d series have a super long drivers side axle (hello torque steer!)

the only thing i can think of that you need for the swap is the front tranny bracket.. maybe the b series rear tranny bracket too.. as for the swap all you'll need is to wire in a knock sensor, and maybe swap out the IAT plug for a b series one (not sure about that one either)..

as for rebuilding.. you really shouldn't do it yourself if you haven't pulled a bottom end apart before.. it is very easy to mess up bearings and such..
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#66950 - 12/17/04 03:39 PM Re: D16Z6 High Mileage: Turbo, or complete swap?
Wesley Offline
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Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 223
Loc: Southern California
I think I'm going to go with the complete swap instead of turboing the engine. It will probably serve me better in the long run, as I'll have an almost brand new engine in the car, and I won't have to worry about rebuilding and whatnot.

Is there any advantage to the JDM over the USDM B16A2 besides the extra 10hp and 2trq that it has? The USDM B16A2 from HMotorsOnline is looking more and more attractive. I shouldn't have to worry about getting it smoggable like I would with the JDM engine.

b16pwrdeg - You said you replaced the timing belt, water pump, belt tensioner, spark plugs, plug wires, distributor cap, and put in an Exedy Organic Clutch and Exedy Lightweight Flywheel. Did you get an engine that needed all that? I really want to do the swap myself, even though it is probably safer to get a shop to do it like you said. Do you think I could do as much of the swap as I can, and then, if needed, bring the project into a shop to get the things I can't do worked out? Oh wait. Hmmm, I probably won't be able to get the car to the shop till it's completely running. Do you think I'll have to replace the things you did with the B16A2 complete changeover "kit"?

kyden - Are the front tranny bracket and rear B-series tranny bracket readily available? I'm a little confused about the engine mounts that the B16A2 changeover will come with. Does it come with engine mounts that fit any car? If it comes with mounts made for itself (the B16A2), will those fit my car? I'm guessing since it comes with new mounts, my orginal mounts won't work with the new engine. But will the new engine mounts work with my original car? (Hope that makes sense). What is the IAT plug? Will the knock sensor be tough to wire in?

Thanks!

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#66951 - 12/17/04 06:29 PM Re: D16Z6 High Mileage: Turbo, or complete swap?
JesSi Offline
Post Master Sr


Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 3364
Loc: St Louis, MO
Quote:

b16pwrdeg - You said you replaced the timing belt, water pump, belt tensioner, spark plugs, plug wires, distributor cap, and put in an Exedy Organic Clutch and Exedy Lightweight Flywheel. Did you get an engine that needed all that?




He probably did all that before he dropped the new engine into it. It's easier to change the clutch and flywheel along with other stuff that way. I believe most JDM engines that are sold on websites that i have seen have anywhere between 10,000-50,000 miles on them and are relatively new so I wouldn't worry too much about the quality of the engine. Just don't be a dummy and start it up without oil and/or tranny fluid in it.
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#66952 - 12/17/04 08:05 PM Re: D16Z6 High Mileage: Turbo, or complete swap?
b16pwrdeg Offline
Jr Poster


Registered: 08/29/04
Posts: 126
Loc: Central VA
I just went ahead and replaced the clutch and flywheel while the motor was out of the car since it would be easier and cheaper. The reason I replaced all the other things (water pump, timing belt, etc.) was just because I wanted to err on the side of safety and just go ahead and replace things which could possibly cause problems in the long run.

If I'm not mistaken, the JDM second gen B16A has slightly higher compression ratio than the B16's found here in the states. It is my understanding that as long as the year of the motor (found on the head above the exhaust manifold) is the same year or newer than you car it will smog just fine and pass emissions. I am not positive about this because here in southern VA, we don't have to pass emissions.

The motor I recieved from HmotorsOnline was in immaculate condition....there was absolutely nothing wrong with it, besides a malfunctioning throttle body, which my mechanic replaced for no extra charge cause he had an extra B16 TB laying around his shop. The mounts I recieved with my motor worked perfectly since the motor is technically made for the car.....I did not have to get any other mounts, so you will definately be ok if you go with a JDM swap.

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#66953 - 12/19/04 10:06 PM Re: D16Z6 High Mileage: Turbo, or complete swap?
Wesley Offline
Poster


Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 223
Loc: Southern California
Thanks! I think I'm going to go ahead with a B16A swap. I was considering the H22A for a little while, but I heard it is a much harder swap to do, you have to make custom axles, the tranny can't handle high RPM shifts very well, and parts aren't as readily available as they are for the B16A. I'm still deciding between the JDM or USDM engines though. I think I'm going to go with the USDM, however, just because I want to be absolutely sure it will pass smog... in California

b16pwrdeg - so you didn't have to get the front or rear tranny brackets at all? Everything you needed came with the engine? I don't think an extra TB will be as available to me as it was to you. Wasn't it a little strange/bad that the engine came with a bad TB?

Thanks!

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#66954 - 12/20/04 09:08 AM Re: D16Z6 High Mileage: Turbo, or complete swap?
b16pwrdeg Offline
Jr Poster


Registered: 08/29/04
Posts: 126
Loc: Central VA
Yeah, I've seen first hand a bad H22 swap....the motor fell out the bottom of the car.

As far as USDM or JDM......go with US if you're worried about passing emissions. The only thing I just thought of, is if your car is OBD-I and the motor (if you get a USDM B16A2) is OBD-II.....I don't know how easy it will be to wire and what not into your car......just a thought.

I didn't have to get any other brackets besides what came with the swap. If you order the complete changeover kit from Hmotorsonline you should get everything you will need to swap the motor, unless you do like I did and change out some parts while the motor is out....I definately recommend changing out the timing belt and water pump because you don't know how many miles are on them.

Yeah, it was a little strange for my TB to be broken, I didn't see it, but the only thing I can think of is it got bent or broke during shipping. If for some reason you need an extra throttle body, I got an extra B16A TB w/ all the sensors setting here in my house, so if you need one, just PM me.

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#66955 - 12/23/04 04:31 PM Re: D16Z6 High Mileage: Turbo, or complete swap?
Wesley Offline
Poster


Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 223
Loc: Southern California
Thanks! I think I wilil go with the USDM B16A, and I'll install a new timing belt and water pump before dropping it in the car like you suggest.

I'm a little unclear on the whole OBD thing. I always thought that when people talked about having to convert from OBD-I to OBD-II they were talking about making a new motor work with an old ECU. If the B16A comes with the ECU made for it (P30), are differences in OBD-level still an issue? Or does the new ECU ALSO have to be messed with in order to make it work with the car? If you wouldn't mind either explaining OBD to me, that would be great.

Also, what is the difference between the B16A and the B16A2? The motor sold on HMotorsOnline is the B16A. Is the B16A2 a new model, or one made for a newer model civic? Thanks!

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#66956 - 12/23/04 07:43 PM Re: D16Z6 High Mileage: Turbo, or complete swap?
b16pwrdeg Offline
Jr Poster


Registered: 08/29/04
Posts: 126
Loc: Central VA
I really don't know the whole OBD difference. I think it has something to do with the emissions or something on the car. I will try to search tomorrow to find some information about the OBD differences. All I know is your car is OBD I and the USDM B16A2 is OBD II.....other than that I am lost.

The JDM B16A comes in two generations. Generation 1 comes with a cable tranny and has 160 hp and roughly 111 ft/lbs. Generation 2 comes with a hydro tranny and has 170 hp and roughly 116 ft/lbs and higher compression (10.4:1). The B16A2 was put in the 99-00 Civic Si (160 hp) ....B16A3 was made for the Del Sol VTEC (160 hp).

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#66957 - 12/23/04 07:54 PM Re: D16Z6 High Mileage: Turbo, or complete swap?
b16pwrdeg Offline
Jr Poster


Registered: 08/29/04
Posts: 126
Loc: Central VA
Found a post on clubcivic that may help you some with the OBD issue....I read it and nobody has really answered the question about a OBD II motor in a OBD I car, but maybe check it out and somebody with knowledge of the subject will post.

http://www.clubcivic.com/board/showthread.php?t=44460

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#66958 - 12/23/04 08:17 PM Re: D16Z6 High Mileage: Turbo, or complete swap?
want-an-SI Offline
Post Master


Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 2070
Loc: somewhere to close to reality
you guys have not seen many h22 swaps then huh
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#66959 - 01/02/05 02:54 PM Re: D16Z6 High Mileage: Turbo, or complete swap?
Wesley Offline
Poster


Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 223
Loc: Southern California
Thanks b16pwrdeg; I'm going to start researching to find out about the OBD and everything else necessary for the swap.

want-an-SI - I haven't seen any swaps in person, although I'm sure others have or know alot about them. From what I've heard so far, they are harder to do and come with alot of problems.

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#66960 - 01/03/05 04:39 PM Re: D16Z6 High Mileage: Turbo, or complete swap?
daisy Offline
Post Master Supreme


Registered: 05/18/00
Posts: 44903
Loc: Tacoma, WA
Before my husband bought his swap for his EJ coupe, we were contemplating turbo'ing the current d16z6. The d-series is underrated by the performance world; a lot of people have tapped these for more, reliable power than the b-series motors. You can rebuild the motor with beefier internals, and boost it usually for cheaper than a swap. The only adjustment I would make is a d16y8 tranny, as the forks are stronger than the z6. This is just my personal opinion though. I took my husband's car to Rockingham, and on a full interior, minus the spare and sub in the trunk, and managed a 15.2 pass with 158k miles on the motor. Nothing but an intake and exhaust for mods. Just something to consider, especially when you live in states with emissions and such.

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#66961 - 01/03/05 07:33 PM Re: D16Z6 High Mileage: Turbo, or complete swap?
slowpoke Offline
Post Master Supreme


Registered: 11/23/99
Posts: 27266
Loc: Tx
I thnk you should turbo the motor you have, as long as your compression is good and your not stupid about it mileage shouldnt make a diffrence, you could always buy a spare d series block and start building it,

you can build a dseries pretty cheap you just need a set of good rods, 8:1 comp pistons, and good bearings, with that and the right amount of tuning you should be able to put down about 250-300 with a big turbo and about 10lbs of boost!

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#66962 - 01/05/05 04:48 PM Re: D16Z6 High Mileage: Turbo, or complete swap?
Wesley Offline
Poster


Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 223
Loc: Southern California
daisy - what did you run the 15.2 in? The D16Z6? In the D16Y8 tranny, what are the forks, and are these trannies as readily available as a complete engine? Is the installation of the tranny to the D16Z6 difficult. If I keep the D16Z6, I definitely want to swap in a new tranny. My currrent one's synchro mesh to reverse is pretty bad, and some of the other gears are getting old too. My engine has just passed the 200,000 mile mark. What parts do you suggest I build up? I have little to no knowledge of rebuilding internals, so I should probably go to a shop for it right? Is a mechanic a good place to go for it?

slowpoke - mmm 300HP! That sounds sweet. You mentioned finding a D-series block and building it up. Couldn't I use the one I have now (the D16Z6)? Is this a good idea? What should I do as far as the turbo goes? Piece a kit together or buy a complete kit? How big a turbo are we talking? Do you know what type I should go for? Where do you suggest I go for the rebulid work to get done? I think I can do the turbo install myself. I really want to, as I am perfectly confident I could complete the bolt-ups easily. What about tuning?

Thanks!

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#66963 - 01/05/05 06:02 PM Re: D16Z6 High Mileage: Turbo, or complete swap?
daisy Offline
Post Master Supreme


Registered: 05/18/00
Posts: 44903
Loc: Tacoma, WA
Wesley: IIRC the z6 forks are aluminum, versus the steel forks of the y8. The gearing is the same in both transmissions, and they are a direct swap for one another. You can try some GM syncromesh in the current tranny to help the grind, but if you're serious about putting down that kind of power, you might as well upgrade the tranny. I ran the 15.2 in the current set up; d16z6 with just intake and exhaust(SRI and Greddy SP) with only the trunk stripped bare. I feel if I had stripped the interior as well, I could've eeked out a 15.0 even. That was on Si wheels, Kumho Ecsta tires at about 28# of air pressure in the tires. Plus factor in my shitty R/T, and with a good driver it could've done a 15.0 easy....with 160k miles on the odometer.

As far as building the internals, if you're not comfortable doing it yourself, research for a reputable shop in your area. They can advise you on pricing. Rods, bearings, pistons are all recommended upgrades. You can piece together your own turbo kit, or buy a complete one. That's personal preference, although most d-series people piece their own together it seems. Slowpoke can probably give you more advice in that direction, as his CRX I believe is swapped and blown. A spare d16 motor would be a wise investment, on the off chance you detonate the current one and need one to limp around on til your motor is fixed.


Hope this helps
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#66964 - 01/06/05 10:14 AM Re: D16Z6 High Mileage: Turbo, or complete swap?
slowpoke Offline
Post Master Supreme


Registered: 11/23/99
Posts: 27266
Loc: Tx
you can find d series blocks for cheap, there a dime a dozen, i would call your local performance shop, they might have one laying around from a customer that had a swap, i would say you could get a whole long block for about 400 bucks,

i sold my d series for 100 bucks just to get rid of it, and if you look hard enough you should be able to get a good deal, if came down to it you could probably find one on ebay and pay the shipping.


anyways, to build the block your really only going to need some rods, pistons, bearings, and arp bolts etc.. and a headgasket. The d series blocks are good for about 10-14psi. In most cases i would recommend getting it sleeved, but since dseries blocks are so cheap and readily avalible i wouldnt worry about sleeving. so all those parts plus the motor will probably set you back about 1200-1500 bucks, any machine shop should be able to put this motor together for you.

after that you really just need a turbo setup, im using a t3/t4 57mm wheel, .63 ar on the compressor and turbine side, its bigger than most t3/t4's i would say thatd probably be about right for what your goals are. its a precision sc34 they cost about 650 new, then you need a manifold (about 250) wastegate (150) bov (40 for a cheapy, 150 for a nice one) downpipe (about 200-250) intercooler (200-250) intercooler piping about 200, oil return and feed (100) and thats it.

last thing on the list is tuning Your car is obd1 so you can run uberdata its a free ems setup. Do you have a p28? you need one, and it needs to be chipped, chipping is about 50 bucks. after that you can basically set your car how you want it, you need a chip burner to make changes but most performance shops can burn chips, if not then a chip burner is about 75 bucks.

You can pay to have it tuned on a dyno with there wideband or you can get your own wideband *300* and tune it yourself.


You could build your own motor if you wanted to, the problem is if this is your daily driver then you will have downtime, thats why i suggested buying a block on the side and building it before hand. You could always try to find a built block thats for sale, it might be cheaper

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#66965 - 01/08/05 03:58 PM Re: D16Z6 High Mileage: Turbo, or complete swap?
Wesley Offline
Poster


Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 223
Loc: Southern California
daisy - Thanks for the info. I think I will go for a new tranny. It would be nice to start fresh on that part and not have to worry about grinding or excessive stress. I've been going to a local performance shop for most of my parts so far. They're really good, but I'm not sure if they do rebuilding or anything like that. Do most performance shops do rebuilding? Or should I look more in the mechanic area? I want to make sure whoever is doing it is going to do a good job. I've been jipped before on bad bodywork, and it's made me warry of whoever is going to work on my car. Nice on the 15.2! I never imagined that a D16Z6 could do that. I've never been to a track though, so I don't have much of a referene point on the issue.

slowpoke - I don't need to be driving the car for the next three years, except during summer. I'm in college right now, and I don't need the car here at all. It's pretty much a project car right now, so I don't have to worry about needing it for driving for a while. I think I'd like to rebuild my own D16Z6, since the down-time won't affect me. In addition to that, I'd feel better keeping an engine that I know has been babied for it's entire life, than buying one that could have been abused for it's entire life. What engine do you have boosted right now? Is it a D16Z6? I checked on the Precision SC34 turbos. The web site lists two T3/T4 models with the 57mm wheel and .63 AR on the compressor and turbine side. The only difference between the two is a .108" wheel exducer size difference. Do you know which model you have? Here is the link to the chart from Precision Turbo's Website: Precision Turbo and Engine T3/T4 Model Chart

Yeah, my ECU is P28. I've been looking at howto's for chipping the P28, and it doesn't seem to difficult. I should be able to do the chipping myself. It's the tuning I'm more concerned about. Would it be worthwhile to buy my own chip-burner? How often would I need to tune the engine? Is it a one-time thing, or is it something I would play around with? I think I'd like to piece the kit together myself. It seems like it would be less expensive to do so, not to mention a little more fun.

Thanks for the help! In the meantime... on to more researching!

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#66966 - 01/10/05 08:18 PM Re: D16Z6 High Mileage: Turbo, or complete swap?
daisy Offline
Post Master Supreme


Registered: 05/18/00
Posts: 44903
Loc: Tacoma, WA
Ask the shop where you get your parts for a good rebuilder, or check with other CSi'ers in your area. I'm sure someone can refer you to a shop. If you're into rebuilding it yourself, can handle the down time, and have a garage to do it, find a friend and rebuild it yourself. It's a good learning experience.

I *hope* to have another change with the z6 before we swap it to find out if I can make a 15.0 pass, but I don't think I will have the opportunity. Good luck.
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