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#614502 - 10/31/06 12:56 AM Re: STI > Z06
qksl2 Offline
Post Master Sr


Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 3279
Loc: So-Cal
Dude yox, I'm not mag racing not one bit. I don't read those reviews or care. I'm speaking from my personal experience on willow, and my 3 times a week on some kinda course, be it drag, road course, or rally. I'm no pro driver, far, far, far from it, and I wouldn't even consider myself a good driver. However, I am far from the only one who feels that the vette feels heavy and twitchy at low speeds whereas other lighter awd cars can blast through the agile sections. Its not like some kinda mystery: as you said, fat tires, 500 lb/ft, and incredible throttle response along with neutral tuning does not a stable car make. And it doesn't.

Ian
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#614503 - 10/31/06 12:58 AM Re: STI > Z06
qksl2 Offline
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Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 3279
Loc: So-Cal
BTW: I don't mean to come accross as hot shit in any way; just be careful, not all of us mag race and you aren't the only one here to tracks their cars. Not all us have to post every cone dodging "adventure" for sva to oodle over.

Ian
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#614504 - 10/31/06 01:54 AM Re: STI > Z06
Quad4_driver Offline
Post Master Supreme


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 11119
Loc: B.C. Canada
Quote:

Dude yox, I'm not mag racing not one bit. I don't read those reviews or care. I'm speaking from my personal experience on willow, and my 3 times a week on some kinda course, be it drag, road course, or rally. I'm no pro driver, far, far, far from it, and I wouldn't even consider myself a good driver. However, I am far from the only one who feels that the vette feels heavy and twitchy at low speeds whereas other lighter awd cars can blast through the agile sections. Its not like some kinda mystery: as you said, fat tires, 500 lb/ft, and incredible throttle response along with neutral tuning does not a stable car make. And it doesn't.

Ian




sorry , but lighter? I was under the impression that the Zo6 was lighter than an evo or STI.

I think people are onto somthing with the huge tires effecting steering feel though.

Are C5 Zo6s still dominateing AutoX? should that not put to rest the arguement?

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#614505 - 10/31/06 02:07 AM Re: STI > Z06
qksl2 Offline
Post Master Sr


Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 3279
Loc: So-Cal
It feels heavier. Sorry. See, its not just a figment of my imagination. The car feels heavy and bulky COMPARATIVELY. Its not. I know, I know, its fucking fast. And I love the thing. Definetely one of my all time fav cars. And for the money, screw your ferrari or viper. Z06 please.

So there are things that other cars do better. I'm over it.

Ian
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#614506 - 10/31/06 05:00 AM Re: STI > Z06
MikeYOX Offline
Post Master Sr


Registered: 07/03/00
Posts: 7607
Loc: West Boemfugk, Egypt
Quote:

Every racetrack review of those 3 cars I've read has contradicted what you just said.

Every time a car mag has tested the Z06 on a track, that I've read, they've commented that it's tail-happy and nervous at the limit while the Viper and GT are planted. Of course the Z06 is incredibly quick, but I don't get why so many people refuse to accept that it has any flaws whatsoever.




There's nothing in that information contradicting what I have said. If it were really that much more difficult to drive at the limit, the Z06 would never turn the lap times that it does. You put that GT, Viper, and Z06 on just about any track, and the Z06 is going to clean house.

Now how in the hell is it that a car is going to be ridiculously tail happy, and hard to drive at the limit, and consistently turn times that match or beat its competition? Something doesn't add up here.

Like I said before. Put down the mags, and start watching these cars in action. I've never seen this disadvantaged tail happy Z06 in real life. I've never driven a tail happy disadvantaged Z06 in real life. I've never met the driver of a tail happy disadvantaged Z06. Don't take my word for it. Certainly don't take a mag's word for it. Check it out for yourself. Mags are a bunch of whiners anyway.

Don't put words in my mouth either. I nver said the Z06 was flawless, and I have paid twice its value for its competition. What do you think?

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#614507 - 10/31/06 05:11 AM Re: STI > Z06
MikeYOX Offline
Post Master Sr


Registered: 07/03/00
Posts: 7607
Loc: West Boemfugk, Egypt
Quote:

Dude yox, I'm not mag racing not one bit. I don't read those reviews or care. I'm speaking from my personal experience on willow, and my 3 times a week on some kinda course, be it drag, road course, or rally. I'm no pro driver, far, far, far from it, and I wouldn't even consider myself a good driver. However, I am far from the only one who feels that the vette feels heavy and twitchy at low speeds whereas other lighter awd cars can blast through the agile sections. Its not like some kinda mystery: as you said, fat tires, 500 lb/ft, and incredible throttle response along with neutral tuning does not a stable car make. And it doesn't.

Ian




You just repeated everything I already said, and agreed with me.

The topic was the Z06 being more difficult to drive at the limit, not feeling more difficult to drive at the limit. Regardless of how it feels, it will destroy almost anything lightweight and AWD in low speed driving. I've seen stock Z06s come out and beat hosts of race modified EVOs and WRX's. It's quite sad really.

You should know that a car feeling better at the limits does not mean that it is faster at the limits.

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#614508 - 10/31/06 10:43 AM Re: STI > Z06
Nathan Offline
Post Master Supreme


Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 21414
Loc: Roedyelin
Quote:

Quote:

Every racetrack review of those 3 cars I've read has contradicted what you just said.

Every time a car mag has tested the Z06 on a track, that I've read, they've commented that it's tail-happy and nervous at the limit while the Viper and GT are planted. Of course the Z06 is incredibly quick, but I don't get why so many people refuse to accept that it has any flaws whatsoever.




There's nothing in that information contradicting what I have said. If it were really that much more difficult to drive at the limit, the Z06 would never turn the lap times that it does. You put that GT, Viper, and Z06 on just about any track, and the Z06 is going to clean house.

Now how in the hell is it that a car is going to be ridiculously tail happy, and hard to drive at the limit, and consistently turn times that match or beat its competition? Something doesn't add up here.

Like I said before. Put down the mags, and start watching these cars in action. I've never seen this disadvantaged tail happy Z06 in real life. I've never driven a tail happy disadvantaged Z06 in real life. I've never met the driver of a tail happy disadvantaged Z06. Don't take my word for it. Certainly don't take a mag's word for it. Check it out for yourself. Mags are a bunch of whiners anyway.

Don't put words in my mouth either. I nver said the Z06 was flawless, and I have paid twice its value for its competition. What do you think?




How are mags "a bunch of whiners?" Car and Driver recently did a test of a bunch of cars at Virginia International Raceway. Their times:

Viper: 3:01.6
Z06: 3:01.1
GT: 3:00.7

I wouldn't really consider that "cleaning house", as even the Viper is close enough that driver skill could sway the standings.

About the Z06, they said,
Quote:

The Corvette Z06, in contrast, was brutal and tricky to drive at the limit... driving it fast was spooky, if oversteer makes you nervous. Mastering this car was challenging and satisfying, but drivers needed to be on their game.




They called the GT "much more a surgical instrument than the Z06 was."

You (and many others) claim that somehow using magazine data is a bogus way to debate, but how does hanging out at one corner of a road course watching Z06s go by tell me anything about how they handle, or their corner exit/entry speeds? All of that is broken down in this particular article.

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#614509 - 10/31/06 03:33 PM Re: STI > Z06
qksl2 Offline
Post Master Sr


Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 3279
Loc: So-Cal
Quote:

Quote:

Dude yox, I'm not mag racing not one bit. I don't read those reviews or care. I'm speaking from my personal experience on willow, and my 3 times a week on some kinda course, be it drag, road course, or rally. I'm no pro driver, far, far, far from it, and I wouldn't even consider myself a good driver. However, I am far from the only one who feels that the vette feels heavy and twitchy at low speeds whereas other lighter awd cars can blast through the agile sections. Its not like some kinda mystery: as you said, fat tires, 500 lb/ft, and incredible throttle response along with neutral tuning does not a stable car make. And it doesn't.

Ian




You just repeated everything I already said, and agreed with me.

The topic was the Z06 being more difficult to drive at the limit, not feeling more difficult to drive at the limit. Regardless of how it feels, it will destroy almost anything lightweight and AWD in low speed driving. I've seen stock Z06s come out and beat hosts of race modified EVOs and WRX's. It's quite sad really.

You should know that a car feeling better at the limits does not mean that it is faster at the limits.




Well you seem pretty sure about it and thats fine. But in the end, let me tell you one thing that I've learned from road racing and even more pointedly in rally racing, where the drivers ability to feel the car and go fast in it are one and the same: harder to drive with higher potential does not a winner make.

Sure, you've seen lots of stock c6's beat up on modded out ricers. Unimpressive at best. You know far better than to make such a weak argument. A well driven gto will outrun a poorly driven z06. Who cares. Subject to driver talent at very best, horribly unscientific at worst.

I know the z06 is overall easily the faster and more dominant car. But give me a viper and give me a z06... I like the vette way better but I'll lap faster in teh viper, and not sweat while doing it.

Ian
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#614510 - 11/01/06 07:56 PM Re: STI > Z06
ajuesnEx00 Offline
Post Master Sr


Registered: 09/11/00
Posts: 3187
Loc: USA
Z06 is such a hot americano. there is no way some subie can beat z06 in track.
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#614511 - 11/03/06 10:01 AM Re: STI > Z06
jsmonet Offline
Post Master Supreme


Registered: 11/13/99
Posts: 150498
Loc: So. Cali
Quote:

Z06 is such a hot americano. there is no way some subie can beat z06 in track.




shut up, please? jesus christ, the entire point of the last few posts was to argue that the z06 was a bitch and a half to drive right. with a driver who isn't used to it, the z06 might as well be running on plastic wheels in the rain. the car seems to have a steep learning curve to realize its potential and not everyone grew up breathing corvettes. comments like these are just moronic.

also, "some subie" includes a whole shitload of modified ones. are you sure you want to make that stupid claim? street z06 vs. a 450+hp dedicated gt racer? some claims are worth making. others just make you look stupid. if you honestly believe you can hop into a c6 z06 and drive it 10/10ths after a day, then good for you. it seems the point of the above wasn't so much to say it is slow, but that other cars are a lot easier to get fast in. making a subsequent claim that a c6 z06 is some giant killer bone stock is just stupid as you open yourself up to dedicated race cars when making a stupid ass statement like that
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#614513 - 11/03/06 04:36 PM Re: STI > Z06
cliff st-clair Offline
Post Master Sr


Registered: 01/03/00
Posts: 6376
Loc: Queens Village, NY
Quote:

Z06 is such a hot americano. there is no way some subie can beat z06 in track.




This was a modded subie and it did beat the Z06 around that track, get over it.
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#614514 - 11/04/06 02:10 AM Re: STI > Z06
XT6Wagon Offline
Moderator


Registered: 10/30/99
Posts: 7265
actualy it was a STOCK Subie, much like a Z06 is a stock corvette.

only they make <500 S204's versus the several thousand or more Z06's.

and they sell the Z06 in the US vs JDM only S204

For the trolls who missed it, the S204 is NOT faster than a Z06, its faster in the RIGHT sections and fast enough when its not faster to keep the Z06 from ever getting ahead. So the Z06 that beats it by a solid margin on a empty track... can't EVER pass the S204. The track is ALSO not suited to the Z06, tight corners, limited straights, and slick surface all hinder it. A wider, longer, and more flowing course would have it running circles around the stock S204 giving the tire and power differences between the two.
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#614515 - 11/04/06 08:28 PM Re: STI > Z06
Nathan Offline
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Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 21414
Loc: Roedyelin
Quote:

Well it is going to be more difficult to drive no matter what. With nearly double the WHP of a stock STi, the driver will have to modulate the throttle more. Double the WHP of your subie and it will require more skill to drive.




How come the Ford GT is so much easier to drive than the Z06, even though it has more power and is faster around some tracks (like in Car and Driver's recent test)?

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#614516 - 11/04/06 09:03 PM Re: STI > Z06
orangegrey Offline
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Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 9329
Loc: Bay Area
I think the GT, like a lot of mid-engined cars, is set up with a bit of understeer as a safety thing, since it's pretty damn tough to catch a car with a rear weight bias once it breaks loose. From what I've seen the Z06 seems set up to be relatively neutral in the hands of experienced drivers, which in turn could be intimidating for mere mortals. Combined with the POS run-flats and somewhat numb steering I could see how it gets a rep as being tough to drive.
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#614517 - 11/05/06 11:41 AM Re: STI > Z06
beerslurpy Offline
Post Master Supreme


Registered: 05/04/02
Posts: 15480
Loc: Spring Hill, FL
Pretty please stop mag racing. There are enough people here who have done track days and actual racing with and against these cars that we dont have to constantly cite car mags as an authority. It only clutters up the thread with bullshit.

edit: dont mean you orangegrey, I just used quick reply.

Yeah, neutral or oversteering behavior is scary until you learn not to lift in response to it. Actually its still scary even after you learn. I was going on to a highway entrance ramp (3 long straight aways separated by 2 kinks) full blast in 4th gear and when I turned, the diff helped out a bit too much and the rear began to slide just a little. I had to really force myself to keep it planted and let the front tires do their thing. I really need to do a track day god dammit.

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#614518 - 11/05/06 12:03 PM Re: STI > Z06
Nathan Offline
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Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 21414
Loc: Roedyelin
Quote:

There are enough people here who have done track days and actual racing with and against these cars that we dont have to constantly cite car mags as an authority. It only clutters up the thread with bullshit.





So actual data is trumped by anecdotal evidence?

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#614519 - 11/05/06 02:14 PM Re: STI > Z06
beerslurpy Offline
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Registered: 05/04/02
Posts: 15480
Loc: Spring Hill, FL
I dont think the opinions of people in car rags really qualifies as hard data. And even if it did, I'd rather hear personal anecdotes than recital of car magazine anecdotes. I think there tends to be a lot of bias inside magazines. I trust GRM but that is pretty much it.
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#614520 - 11/05/06 06:44 PM Re: STI > Z06
Nathan Offline
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Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 21414
Loc: Roedyelin
Quote:

I dont think the opinions of people in car rags really qualifies as hard data. And even if it did, I'd rather hear personal anecdotes than recital of car magazine anecdotes. I think there tends to be a lot of bias inside magazines. I trust GRM but that is pretty much it.




I was citing the Nov. '06 Car and Driver where they not only give a narrative about their impressions of how each car handled, but give corner entry/exit speeds for every corner of the course, as well as maximum speeds on each straight and lateral g.

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#614521 - 11/06/06 01:51 AM Re: STI > Z06
qksl2 Offline
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Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 3279
Loc: So-Cal
After driving a c6 z06 this weekend, and having some seat time in the gt and quite a bit in the viper, both of the latter are easier to drive over the entire track, and faster over almost all of it too. The z06 feels like it will rotate easier than the viper in very tight sections... but be careful puttin the throttle on! The gt just feels planted as hell, and fast. Gearing makes it really calm to drive, too, comparatively. It feels like the chassis handles the power way better.

Know that this is ocming from a guy who likes the z06 best of all, by far, too. I'm just not so fucking blind to not notice its "character".

Ian
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#614522 - 11/07/06 03:15 PM Re: STI > Z06
FirePlug Offline
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Registered: 12/22/00
Posts: 165
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska, USA
Quote:

The zo6 is faster in a straight line, that's the bottom line




If I'm not mistaken I believe the z tune skyline ran a faster 1/4 mile?! A 10.06 from 0-400m, granted that's a little less then a quarter...but still a low 10 none the less!


Edited by FirePlug (11/07/06 03:20 PM)
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#614524 - 11/07/06 06:53 PM Re: STI > Z06
Quad4_driver Offline
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Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 11119
Loc: B.C. Canada
Quote:

Quote:

I dont think the opinions of people in car rags really qualifies as hard data. And even if it did, I'd rather hear personal anecdotes than recital of car magazine anecdotes. I think there tends to be a lot of bias inside magazines. I trust GRM but that is pretty much it.




I was citing the Nov. '06 Car and Driver where they not only give a narrative about their impressions of how each car handled, but give corner entry/exit speeds for every corner of the course, as well as maximum speeds on each straight and lateral g.




I've got a new road and track test of the Viper vs Z06 vs GT500. The Z06 is .01 of a second behind the viper in lap time. They did say the viper was easier to drive, but atributed it solely to grip. And they stated they would love to see what a Z06 would do with better tires.

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#614525 - 11/07/06 09:20 PM Re: STI > Z06
qksl2 Offline
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Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 3279
Loc: So-Cal
Z06 feels like it has higher peak grip. Viper feels like it has more average grip and isn't always fighitng front slide v rear slide. Again, Z06 is my fav by far. Light weight plus big power? Yes please.

Ian
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#8965832 - 03/07/17 01:39 AM Re: STI > Z06 [Re: qksl2]
meiqing Offline
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#8965833 - 03/07/17 01:40 AM Re: STI > Z06 [Re: meiqing]
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