#6071958 - 01/18/12 11:51 PM
Re: Four weeks progress...
[Re: HX_Guy]
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Puck
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I get the principles..it's just the details I get fuzzy about. I finally got the lifting part down...now the eating part, do I keep staying at ~1400 calories/day...do I increase?
Honestly the workload of the lifting seems very light right now but Im going to follow the program and if it says go gradual, that is what I am going to do...but it doesn't feel like I'm doing all this work where I need more calories.
For a beginner, I'd recommend the approach that OB1 did.
He was pretty fat. But he busted his tail. And I mean busted his tail. Apparently he was knocking out nearly a half pound a day (or more). Basically he got to a level where he was happy with his overall weight, albeit very skinny, and then used that as a frame to build off of.
When you're losing weight like that, you quickly find your baseline. You're basically looking for your Basal Metabolic Rate (BMR), which essentially the absolute minimum number of calories you'd burn in a day without an activity factor. Then, if you add in an activity factor, you'd find out how many calories you'd burn in a day. This is the number of calories you'd need to take in to:
1. Not gain weight
2. Not lose weight
That's your baseline. It's entirely dependent on genetics as well as things like your activities throughout a given day, your height, weight, etc.
Anyways, let's assume that your 1400 calories/day are the number of calories you need to maintain your current weight. Let's also assume that you're happy with the overall frame that you have and you'd like to add to it.
This is where you're concentrating on things like: gaining strength and gaining muscle mass.
Now, this is where you can play with a variety of things, and this is where everyone here are talking macro and micro levels in regards to their nutrients. IF you want to keep it simplistic, stick to what I've [and others] have been saying: take in more, quality calories and lift heavy.
Essentially, you'll want to increase the number of calories. You're going to be feeding your engine. And if you give your body proper nutrients, you're essentially giving your body good gasoline, rather than skunky, nasty gasoline. 
As for the total number of calories to increase? This is where it is necessary to track your calories. I'm not talking about tracking differences of 10-15 calories. It becomes important to note: should I be taking in 100 extra calories a day? 200? 500? 1000? This varies from person to person, from activity factor to activity factor, etc. etc.
I'd err on the side of incrementally increasing your calories. Make sure your calories are solid calories. When I was lifting like woah I was eating a combination of something like the following throughout the week:
Milk + protein powder
Tuna
Chicken
Cottage cheese
Turkey
Deli meats [lean]
Yogurt
Cheeses
Soybeans [things like Edamame, for example]
Peanut butter
etc. etc.
I'd weigh myself daily (sometimes twice daily). I'd track how many numbers were increasing (or decreasing) based on the number of calories I was taking in. I'd track if I was plateauing in my lifts [i.e. hitting a wall] as well as my weight. If I was plateauing and my weight was staying the same, I'd increase my caloric intake.
Granted, you're (and nobody here is remotely close either) is on the level of someone like a Ronnie Coleman or a Jay Cutler, but there's a reason why these guys are taking in 7,000-10,000 calories a day when they're bulking. Granted, when they're cutting those numbers are a lot more along the line of 3,000-4,000. Which is still pretty high for us normal folk.
Don't put too much thought into it. It really is very simple:
1. Find a baseline
2. Increase caloric intake to gain weight
3. Decrease caloric intake to lose weight
4. Strength train and have a surplus of calories to gain weight (and muscle)
5. Lift heavier and heavier.
I hope I made this as simple to follow as possible.
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#6071986 - 01/19/12 12:09 AM
Re: Four weeks progress...
[Re: Puck]
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HX_Guy
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Good stuff man, really appreciate the time you put into writing that.
Couple of things...
At 1400 calories, lifting M-W-F and doing light cardio (1 hr elliptical) T-Th, I'm still losing weight at around 1.5-2.0lbs per week. Using the general rule that 3500 calories = 1 lbs, that's 5250 - 7000 calories extra per week, or about 750 - 1000 more per day? Seems like a lot, and I'm sure it's not an exact science...like you said, just experiment by upping it 200 or so calories per day and see what happens.
The other part of this equation is if I'm happy with my current frame, and that's the thing...I'm not.
I have a lot of soft skin/fat and that is what I want to get rid of...more so (I think) than gaining muscle. I've brought it up before and no one has really commented on it (they may not know either) but I think it's partially a problem of loose skin and partially a problem of too much fat. I was 235lbs at one point with less muscle than now, 60lbs more than I am now...I have lots of stretch marks on my stomach and my hips (love handles). The pictures I put up in the other thread demonstrate it pretty well...
I guess the general thought though is that if I put on muscle and "fill in" under the current fat, the fat will reduce in the process and I'll firm up. If it's partially a loose skin problem, I don't know how that plays into it.
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#6071996 - 01/19/12 12:18 AM
Re: Four weeks progress...
[Re: HX_Guy]
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Puck
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Registered: 09/09/01
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Your biggest problem is that you don't have much muscle mass. You may be light overall [175 pounds], but imagine if you were 175 pounds with actual muscle mass. Truth be told, you have some muscle. Mostly in your traps and deltoids.
Your biggest issue is your chest. You really don't have much of one. The 5x5 should take care of that. Should also build your forearms nicely.
Whereas putting on muscle mass will help you burn more calories daily (maintaining muscle does up your BMR...) and also fill yourself out in the areas you're looking for, I get the impression that you're not quite where you want to be in terms of a baseline.
Your main issue, I'd imagine, in regards to your fat is the stomach area. It's not uncommon in people that lose that much weight.
How tall are you? You look about 5'8" or 5'9"? Someone of your height being 175 pounds without much muscle mass should probably be sitting in the 155-160 range. I'm not a huge fan of BMI, but it's not a bad stat to use with people that don't have much muscle mass. For people that do (i.e. guys like Art and Drew [Silock]), it's a terrible stat as it would make them appear overweight. Hell, bodybuilders would be considered obese.
So, you can go one of two ways: keep losing weight to get a better baseline and then monitor your caloric intake [overall appearance change] and add the muscle as you see fit. Or, take in a bit more calories, strength train, and fill yourself out.
Personally, I think you'd be happier going with option #1. Although I can certainly understand why the more veteran lifters would advocate #2. It depends on what you want. I've always got the impression that you're the type that wants something, so you go get it. I think you'd be more gratified getting your weight at a respectable level, and then more fully understanding your body. Maybe I'm wrong.
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#6072008 - 01/19/12 12:31 AM
Re: Four weeks progress...
[Re: Puck]
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HX_Guy
Please blame any typos on my executive assistant
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I'm actually 6'1"...which is why when I started losing weight, I figured when I reached 175lbs, I would have gotten rid of the fat around my stomach. Obviously that isn't the case. My BMI is 23.1, which is above the middle point apparently. The middle BMI point for my height would put me at 161lbs.
You're right, my main issue is my stomach. I'm ok with with my non-muscular arms and non-muscular chest...well, not "ok", but I don't hate them I fucking hate my stomach and would chop it off if I could. 
You're right about the two options you outlines and #1 is what I have been going for this whole time...I basically wanted to be "skinny", so I'm not embarrassed when I take my shirt off and sit on a chair or bend over to pick up something. I figured I would keep losing weight until the fat is gone (thought that would be 175lbs, again, obviously not) and then take it from there to start putting on some muscle.
Now with the advice of this forum, I've kind of strayed toward option #2 but the challenge with that is that I'd like to still get rid of that fat around my stomach and I know it's possible while also putting on muscle but I'm not sure what the sweet spot is. Muscles need calories to build, but I want to make sure those calories are going to the muscles and not to maintaining/growing the fat.
...and oh yea, my biceps have some muscle too (not just traps and deltoids). 
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#6072095 - 01/19/12 02:31 AM
Re: Four weeks progress...
[Re: Puck]
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dirtyS13drifta
dirtyS13drifta
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Yeah, your biceps look to have a bit of muscle in that second picture. But most noticeable are your traps and deltoids.
Didn't realize you were 6'1.
If you can get yourself around 160, I think you'd be a lot happier with your appearance. Then build off of that. I think that if you went with #2, you'd be frustrated quite often.
I don't know that I agree. He'll hit 160 and still not find a ton underneath.
10lbs isn't going to reveal some sculpted body hiding.
The things is the minute you start gaining again you'll lose you're abs anyhow. I think you'd be a lot better off building the basis underneath it and cutting away the fat after. Plus having more muscle will help you cut faster.
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#6072099 - 01/19/12 02:37 AM
Re: Four weeks progress...
[Re: ]
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dirtyS13drifta
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The thing is even skinny you can not like taking your shit off. You don't have some excess of skin from being 235. Shit i looked mostly the same at 170ish and 5'8 in the gut(my moobs rock though).
Starting strength + planks gave me better abs at 170 than running at 163 did. maybe my Adonis belt was slightly better at the lower weight, but I have a semblance of a 4 pack+ obliques again unflexed, something I hadn't had since I was sub 20years and sub 150lbs.
My point is your core will look soft until you get below 10% body fat. That's fucking normal. Most people over 10% have a soft gut. Shit most at 10% still can't see much.
So do you want to cut that much weight(20 ish pound by my sloppy beer math)? or would rather approach it from both directions(lean muscle gain and fat burn)?
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#6072117 - 01/19/12 03:21 AM
Re: Four weeks progress...
[Re: HX_Guy]
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dirtyS13drifta
dirtyS13drifta
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Whoa whoa whoa...abs? Yea right, in my wildest dreams.  I think we are both talking about if I get to 160, I would get rid of those flab rolls you see in the bent over picture above. Honestly though I don't even know if 160 would do it, that's only another 15 lbs.
Honestly most people will have those if they don't have a 6 pack. There's two ways to be, no belly fat, or enough to roll. I mean sure you' have more than some, but I still think more muscle will make it go way faster than removing all the fat.
But yeah, if you lose 15 you might look like that d-bag.
Or you could stay the same weight, not but new clothes, lift the same amount of time you'd be cutting and work at lifting rather than cutting and look better.
Oh and be stronger.
Muscles make a huge difference on looking good/decent at 10-20% bf.
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#6073486 - 01/19/12 02:47 PM
Re: Four weeks progress...
[Re: Euphoricuck]
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HX_Guy
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common that cant be your goal...
just keep at it.
Long term goal? No. But short term (as in the next 2-3 months), sure, I wouldn't mind.
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#6074038 - 01/19/12 05:44 PM
Re: Four weeks progress...
[Re: HX_Guy]
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Sir Ironpool
Sponsored by Toyota
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#6074084 - 01/19/12 06:00 PM
Re: Four weeks progress...
[Re: Sir Ironpool]
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dirtyS13drifta
dirtyS13drifta
Unregistered
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It's funny how goals and expectations can change. I thought for sure I'd be happy at 170 when I was 210. Then I got to 170, and even 165 isn't enough. my lowest has been 158 and that still wasn't cutting it. Currently at 167 and plan to get to 155 and I'm sure I'll want to be 150 once I get there (Im 5'7). Here's an example. The goal in triathlon is to be as lean as possible, while having the lower body and core strength to be fast on the bike and run. The current world Ironman champ is.5'11 and 150 pounds.  and previous champ 5'11 and 171.  I guess my point is that every body is different and one weight is not universal.
yeah, big difference though. Yours is a fitness derived goal and OP's is purely cosmetic. You're not cutting for costmetics(I think), but to maximize your potential. He doesn't care if he's faster, slower or stronger, simply wants to look "ok" with his shirt off. He doesn't seem to realize that a bit of real muscle will go further for that than loosing all his body fat.
But yet, he'll probably be a faster marathoner at 150lbs than his current 175lbs. But seeing as he hates running.... yeah.
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#6074400 - 01/19/12 08:26 PM
Re: Four weeks progress...
[Re: ]
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Back 5
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Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 18123
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Those guys look just as silly with their huge legs and bird chests as the dude-bros at the gym with their huge pegs and pigeon legs.
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#6074480 - 01/19/12 09:09 PM
Re: Four weeks progress...
[Re: Sir Ironpool]
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dirtyS13drifta
dirtyS13drifta
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Those guys look just as silly with their huge legs and bird chests as the dude-bros at the gym with their huge pegs and pigeon legs. yeah, but at least it's a functional silliness.
I'll agree.
Personally that's my excuse for not running to much or lifting too much... I'm so worried about my balanced body!
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#6074506 - 01/19/12 09:21 PM
Re: Four weeks progress...
[Re: Sir Ironpool]
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Back 5
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Registered: 09/16/03
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Those guys look just as silly with their huge legs and bird chests as the dude-bros at the gym with their huge pegs and pigeon legs. yeah, but at least it's a functional silliness.
No doubt. I wish I had half their ability. I chose to create a more balance physique, one that will benefit me in a sport such as Rugby I'll be content, for now, with being able to run 5k and 10k races.
I'd ultimately like to complete an Ironman, but I won't cut to their level.
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#6185440 - 03/05/12 11:27 AM
Re: Four weeks progress...
[Re: FireInTheWhole]
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HX_Guy
Please blame any typos on my executive assistant
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Week 24 Update
Completed the 8th week of Starting Strength yesterday and 6 months since I started the whole diet/lifting with 1 month off in there. As many people here said, my goals would change and they have. When I started this, I basically just didn't want to be fat anymore...didn't really have any aspirations to put on a lot of muscles but as things progress, the muscles came anyway and I'm loving it. Now I never want to be some big meaty sort of guy, I don't like that look, but wouldn't mind getting close to something like Silock.
I've got a couple of pains that I've been fighting through over the last week or so trying to finish out the 8 weeks so I'm planning on actually taking a week off from doing any exercise that includes any bending at the knees/hips.
One pain in in my left butt cheek that is sort of dull until I bend my body over to my right and then it gets real sharp. It's not related to the lifting because I used to get it from time to time but usually just for a few hours, never for a week+.
Second pain is in my right upper thigh area (almost where the leg meets the hip)...when I push up from the squat for example, I get this sharp pain for a split second as I'm about 3/4 of the way up...happens every time even if doing just a squat with no weights.
I figure a week off will fix it then I can continue on, but I still want to keep doing the press, bench press, chin-ups and maybe deadlift too if I can. Will stay at 1500 calories for this week since it will be a light load and then up it to 1750 calories the following week as I think my weight at 168.1 lbs is good now. Time to put on some muscle mass and keep the weight around 170 lbs.
And the photo updates...
Total Progess: Diet + 12 Weeks of Lifting + 4 Weeks Off + 8 Weeks Starting Strength
Side: http://nitnelav.com/Body/Mouseover/Week24/NoDiet_24weeks_side.html
Front: http://nitnelav.com/Body/Mouseover/Week24/NoDiet_24weeks_front.html
24 Weeks (12 Weeks Lifting + 4 Weeks Off + 8 Weeks Starting Strength)
Side: http://nitnelav.com/Body/Mouseover/Week24/0to24weeks_side.html
Front: http://nitnelav.com/Body/Mouseover/Week24/0to24weeks_front.html
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#6185803 - 03/05/12 01:34 PM
Re: Four weeks progress...
[Re: Sir Ironpool]
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HX_Guy
Please blame any typos on my executive assistant
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Those goofy mouseover pics aren't working.
Stupid Dreamhost server where I host my web stuff is acting up.
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#6268236 - 04/09/12 10:54 PM
Re: Four weeks progress...
[Re: HX_Guy]
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dirtyS13drifta
dirtyS13drifta
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Now you're looking good val. For the 100th millionth time. Start eating(once your back to lifting).
Fuck, I'm starting to see my casual approach to running and eating well isn't paying off. Time to up the cardio or all you fuckers will start calling me fat because I can barely see my abdominals.
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#6330972 - 05/09/12 12:11 PM
Re: Four weeks progress...
[Re: ]
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HX_Guy
Please blame any typos on my executive assistant
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Another month has gone by so it' time to update this thread.
The last month has been pretty mixed...I reached some new personal bests but also got an injury to my right leg which put my squats, deads and cleans all on hold for 3 weeks. I continued to do press and bench plus chin-ups and I also introduced pull-ups, planks and sit ups to make up for the stuff I wasn't doing.
Bench press is was up 5lbs to 160lbs (but I've reset this week)
Shoulder press was up 2.5lbs to 110lbs (reset this week)
Chin-Ups up to 12/10/7
Had my body fat measured via a dunk test, twice, one result was 12.54% and the other 13.17%.
Also upped my calories from 1750 to 2250 this week and my weight is up a couple of pounds though some of it is water weight I assume as I was in the mid 164s last week and Im mid 166s this week.
And photos...
Total Progess: Diet + 12 Weeks of Lifting + 4 Weeks Off + 16 Weeks Starting Strength
Side: http://nitnelav.com/Body/Mouseover/Week32/NoDiet_32weeks_side.html
Front: http://nitnelav.com/Body/Mouseover/Week32/NoDiet_32weeks_front.html
32 Weeks (12 Weeks Lifting + 4 Weeks Off + 16 Weeks Starting Strength)
Side: http://nitnelav.com/Body/Mouseover/Week32/0to32weeks_side.html
Front: http://nitnelav.com/Body/Mouseover/Week32/0to32weeks_front.html
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#6331345 - 05/09/12 02:12 PM
Re: Four weeks progress...
[Re: DieZel]
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Artvandelay
Artvandelay
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Good stuff. Keep at it. Even your face looks a lot leaner.
Starting to add muscle now. The increase in calories is going to help a lot.
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#6331465 - 05/09/12 02:49 PM
Re: Four weeks progress...
[Re: HX_Guy]
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gamby
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The before/after is pretty dramatic. I love seeing this stuff. It's exactly why people should take before/after pics.
If you can get your chest to fill in, you'll be looking nicely proportioned.
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I sort of want to do it for a year and then at the end take all the photos and make a GIF movie with all the frames. 
