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#7803173 - 08/02/14 11:35 PM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: Risky Business]
gamby Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Risky Business Bandit
Cycling doesn't require talent, there is no skill (talking about road here, not mtb). You get out what you put into it.


I kill myself to be mid-pack at my weekly TT while my friend Sarah will show up with minimal training and a shit diet and be faster than me. Natural talent can translate to the ability to turn the pedals.

Same reason Chris Horner can be riding in grand tours at 42 and eat a shit diet. Well, one reason. He does have a multi-million dollar effort backing him, too.
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#7803485 - 08/03/14 11:34 AM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: Risky Business]
The Mighty BellRacer Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Risky Business Bandit
Cycling doesn't require talent, there is no skill (talking about road here, not mtb). You get out what you put into it.


Genetics and deep carbon clinchers are the only things that matter. And aerobars.

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#7803514 - 08/03/14 12:08 PM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: The Mighty BellRacer]
Risky Business Offline
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no aero helmet doe?

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#7803583 - 08/03/14 01:00 PM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: Risky Business]
stickaz_old Offline
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I suppose we are also presuming Lycra and shaving too
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#7803589 - 08/03/14 01:03 PM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: Risky Business]
nato2377 Offline
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watch the last 3Km of Stage 8 of The Tour of California, shot from John Degankalbs bike and tell me there is no skill involved lol you have to have some serious bike handling skills to be bumping other dudes and riding a inch off their wheel in a pack of 40 doing 35mph. descending takes skill. there is a lot of skill required to ride a road bike fast/efficient/in a pack, but its different kinds of skill compared to mtb

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeCRnFq_9Lo

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#7803663 - 08/03/14 02:09 PM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: nato2377]
Risky Business Offline
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I agree there is some skill especially in group riding, I've been "handed" before \:\|

Just saying in general your speed in a straight line is directly reflective of the effort you've put in doing the same thing over and over (riding) which requires no skill. To be a *better* cyclist means being a faster one, and being fast doesn't require talent, it's a quantifiable measure not expressed via talent.

I will stop rambling now

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#7803781 - 08/03/14 05:25 PM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: Risky Business]
bt0 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Risky Business Bandit

Just saying in general your speed in a straight line is directly reflective of the effort you've put in doing the same thing over and over (riding) which requires no skill. To be a *better* cyclist means being a faster one, and being fast doesn't require talent, it's a quantifiable measure not expressed via talent.

I will stop rambling now
It's a good thing cycling consists entirely of straight lines

Someone sign this guy up for a crit

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#7803974 - 08/03/14 10:56 PM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: Risky Business]
gamby Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Risky Business Bandit
To be a *better* cyclist means being a faster one, and being fast doesn't require talent, it's a quantifiable measure not expressed via talent.



...and there are those who have the athletic talent to spin those cranks harder/faster than others. I could train forever and not be as fast as nato.
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#7804056 - 08/04/14 01:07 AM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: bt0]
Risky Business Offline
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 Originally Posted By: bt0
 Originally Posted By: Risky Business Bandit

Just saying in general your speed in a straight line is directly reflective of the effort you've put in doing the same thing over and over (riding) which requires no skill. To be a *better* cyclist means being a faster one, and being fast doesn't require talent, it's a quantifiable measure not expressed via talent.

I will stop rambling now
It's a good thing cycling consists entirely of straight lines

Someone sign this guy up for a crit



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#7804058 - 08/04/14 01:09 AM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: gamby]
Risky Business Offline
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 Originally Posted By: g@mby
 Originally Posted By: Risky Business Bandit
To be a *better* cyclist means being a faster one, and being fast doesn't require talent, it's a quantifiable measure not expressed via talent.



...and there are those who have the athletic talent to spin those cranks harder/faster than others. I could train forever and not be as fast as nato.


We are all wired different, some are more athletic than others...wouldn't chalk it up to talent doe.

It's also hard to compare "would be" abilities of a 40+ year old vs. someone at their peak in their late 20's.

Nato is a beast and he is very quick, but that level isn't unreachable imo. I know I will never get there because I don't have the desire or the want to put in the time (I am a recreational cyclist, not competitive), but it's definitely not unattainable. Pro levels on the other hand i will agree, some of that shit is out of this world and I don't know how it's humanly possible to achieve. bout dat doping doe

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#7804077 - 08/04/14 02:05 AM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: Risky Business]
bt0 Offline
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I hope you're facepalming your own scarcely informed views.

You can make the same claim about almost anything, if you take a myopic view that omits all other facets and act like it happens in a straight line, on a level course, with no debris or obstacles.

But no competitions are ever like that. Especially races, the more people you have involved.

If you have a road race with a varied field, and person A just mashes pedals and has no technique or tactics, while person B is 95% the athlete person A is but employs group race tactics & techniques, B will beat A more often than not.

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#7804177 - 08/04/14 07:58 AM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: bt0]
shamrok Offline
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It is the 40+ that surprise you. Jobs better, more time to train, and money to burn.

Couple 40s,50s around here that manhandle most people
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#7804270 - 08/04/14 09:14 AM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: bt0]
Risky Business Offline
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 Originally Posted By: bt0
I hope you're facepalming your own scarcely informed views.

You can make the same claim about almost anything, if you take a myopic view that omits all other facets and act like it happens in a straight line, on a level course, with no debris or obstacles.

But no competitions are ever like that. Especially races, the more people you have involved.

If you have a road race with a varied field, and person A just mashes pedals and has no technique or tactics, while person B is 95% the athlete person A is but employs group race tactics & techniques, B will beat A more often than not.


oh I get it, so you'd put your money on the guy with the mad handling skillz in the twistiez and not the guy with the strong legs/endurance. Got it.

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#7804423 - 08/04/14 10:39 AM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: Risky Business]
gamby Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Risky Business Bandit


It's also hard to compare "would be" abilities of a 40+ year old vs. someone at their peak in their late 20's.

Nato is a beast and he is very quick, but that level isn't unreachable imo. I know I will never get there because I don't have the desire or the want to put in the time (I am a recreational cyclist, not competitive), but it's definitely not unattainable. Pro levels on the other hand i will agree, some of that shit is out of this world and I don't know how it's humanly possible to achieve. bout dat doping doe


I'm fairly certain that if I were training hard at 26, I still wouldn't be as fast as nato. I accepted long ago that I'm a marginal/dreadfully average athlete.
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#7804462 - 08/04/14 11:02 AM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: Risky Business]
bt0 Offline
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Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 7284
 Originally Posted By: Risky Business Bandit
 Originally Posted By: bt0
I hope you're facepalming your own scarcely informed views.

You can make the same claim about almost anything, if you take a myopic view that omits all other facets and act like it happens in a straight line, on a level course, with no debris or obstacles.

But no competitions are ever like that. Especially races, the more people you have involved.

If you have a road race with a varied field, and person A just mashes pedals and has no technique or tactics, while person B is 95% the athlete person A is but employs group race tactics & techniques, B will beat A more often than not.


oh I get it, so you'd put your money on the guy with the mad handling skillz in the twistiez and not the guy with the strong legs/endurance. Got it.


No, there's more to it than that. Smarter riders don't have to exert as much effort for the same result.

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#7804553 - 08/04/14 11:55 AM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: bt0]
stickaz_old Offline
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Registered: 02/04/01
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getting some 'vert on on Saturday in the Soquel Demo Forest. The new 'flow' trail segments are PIMP


*sorry to interrupt the shitfest
**on a sidenote this is one of the VERY few times I've ever attempted a 2x loop. I was working pretty hard here!
**much time spent on various teeters/stunts/jumps 2x'ing and 3x'ing some of the features. definitely going back soon!



^Top of Sulfur Springs climb overlooking Monterey Bay. Santa Cruz below somewhat covered in fog. Normally a fairly broad ocean view unless fog

**I was highly molestando by a family of wild boars here maybe 5-6 years ago. I had to use my bike as a shield after failing to ride away in the only downhill direction
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#7804639 - 08/04/14 12:42 PM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: bt0]
nato2377 Offline
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Registered: 07/09/07
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Loc: Denver, CO
 Originally Posted By: bt0
 Originally Posted By: Risky Business Bandit
 Originally Posted By: bt0
I hope you're facepalming your own scarcely informed views.

You can make the same claim about almost anything, if you take a myopic view that omits all other facets and act like it happens in a straight line, on a level course, with no debris or obstacles.

But no competitions are ever like that. Especially races, the more people you have involved.

If you have a road race with a varied field, and person A just mashes pedals and has no technique or tactics, while person B is 95% the athlete person A is but employs group race tactics & techniques, B will beat A more often than not.


oh I get it, so you'd put your money on the guy with the mad handling skillz in the twistiez and not the guy with the strong legs/endurance. Got it.


No, there's more to it than that. Smarter riders don't have to exert as much effort for the same result.


exactly. its usually the smartest rider who wins, rather than the strongest. doenst matter how strong you are if you cant navigate turns to stay with the peloton, cant negotiate the peloton to position yourself in the right spot, if you were dumb and did too much work throughout the race and have no sprint left...etc. also,how do you define strong? stong sprinter, climber, TT'er .. each type of rider has a slightly different skill set to be fast. getting faster isnt always about just riding more. especially in mtb.

i get what you are trying to say though risky, and i sorta agree with you in the road aspect.

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#7804641 - 08/04/14 12:43 PM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: nato2377]
nato2377 Offline
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thats some good climbing there stickaz!
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#7804647 - 08/04/14 12:46 PM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: nato2377]
stickaz_old Offline
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^taking your advice and others that I need to do hills heh.
I figure it's a double-bonus as my mtbike helps me avoid burnout-ism as that whole ride was a blast. Well ok some all of the climbs sucked but I'm trying to forget those ;\)

That 'flow' trail they put/are putting in there is RIDICULOUSLY awesome:

http://www.mbosc.org/current-projects/4-mile-flow-trail-at-demo/

on a sad note the Braille trail is super rutted in places and requires walk-a-rounds if you don't want to go ragdolling in a couple places. It was always hairy but now it isn't passable in some spots
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#7804681 - 08/04/14 01:04 PM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: bt0]
Risky Business Offline
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Registered: 05/17/10
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 Originally Posted By: bt0
 Originally Posted By: Risky Business Bandit
 Originally Posted By: bt0
I hope you're facepalming your own scarcely informed views.

You can make the same claim about almost anything, if you take a myopic view that omits all other facets and act like it happens in a straight line, on a level course, with no debris or obstacles.

But no competitions are ever like that. Especially races, the more people you have involved.

If you have a road race with a varied field, and person A just mashes pedals and has no technique or tactics, while person B is 95% the athlete person A is but employs group race tactics & techniques, B will beat A more often than not.


oh I get it, so you'd put your money on the guy with the mad handling skillz in the twistiez and not the guy with the strong legs/endurance. Got it.


No, there's more to it than that. Smarter riders don't have to exert as much effort for the same result.


Of course there is more to it than that, no one is disputing it. Strategy, some skill, pace, etc.

We are talking road cycling as a sport in respect to talent...relative to other sports/talent as that's the only thing we can benchmark to.

I was responding to gamby since he brought up natural talent in regards to road cycling. He can get better without actually being *talented* as it's more about putting in the work than it is about talent. Try a sport like soccer for example, endurance can be attained by many, but skills/talent are limited and not achievable by all. Basically barrier to entry to competitive road cycling is way lower to those less talented, but are willing to put in the work where as competitive soccer is limited to those who are putting in the work AND are *naturally* talented.

It's not that complicated

Also, I've played competitive sports throughout my life, I've never been a competitive cyclist, but having gotten back into recreational cycling recently it's just my perspective.

If I wanted to get into some races, etc the door is wide open and there is nothing stopping me aside from my own lack of *want* to do it. Can I be as fast as Nato? Who knows, but I am sure if I rode 4x what I currently do to match his effort I can probably get up there.

How many people at 30 can get up say "hey i am going to start playing competitive soccer". None will be worth a shit, because it requires talent/skills on a completely different level that can't be learned in a year, where as cycling *skills* can and hence why *older* people at 30+ and 40+ are getting into it and are making solid progress. Effort = Better cyclist whereas you can put in a shit load of effort into being a good soccer player, if you don't have talent, you will still be shit regardless.

You don't have to agree with me, but I am pretty sure if road cycling had to be rated somewhere on a talent scale of 1 - 10 it would rate towards the bottom.

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#7804715 - 08/04/14 01:24 PM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: Risky Business]
nato2377 Offline
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in regards to road cycling,in the amateur ranks, yes i would agree with you that you can get better by simply putting in more work and not being naturally skilled/having skills. there are some fast guys in cat3 that cant "ride" worth a shit. once you get to cat2 and above, especially pro, that's not the case anymore...skills become important. some cant learn them and stay cat2/1. others can learn them or natually have the talent and then go pro... not everyone in soccer is naturally talented either..some learned it from a young age and developed the skills over the years, and some it just clicks for. same with cycling.

Edited by nato2377 (08/04/14 01:29 PM)

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#7805052 - 08/04/14 05:45 PM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: Risky Business]
nato2377 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Risky Business

How many people at 30 can get up say "hey i am going to start playing competitive soccer". None will be worth a shit, because it requires talent/skills on a completely different level that can't be learned in a year, where as cycling *skills* can and hence why *older* people at 30+ and 40+ are getting into it and are making solid progress. Effort = Better cyclist whereas you can put in a shit load of effort into being a good soccer player, if you don't have talent, you will still be shit regardless.


how many people at 30 and 40 can say " hey, im going to start cycling competitively" none will be worth a shit either. the competive guys you see in master races, 40+ and all that jazz have been riding for yeeeeaaaars. they didnt just pick it up on a whim. how many dudes in their 40s do you see being competitive in the pros? only one i can think of is jens voight and he just retired. cycling might be easier to get into an progress but to ride a bike fast takes skills, but they can be learned. we can just to agree to disagree though :P

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#7805061 - 08/04/14 05:50 PM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: nato2377]
stickaz_old Offline
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yea I am probably going to disagree as well. Pro Cycling is basically fitness/endurance just like any other distance event [running/swimming]
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#7805081 - 08/04/14 06:10 PM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: stickaz_old]
nato2377 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: stickaz
yea I am probably going to disagree as well. Pro Cycling is basically fitness/endurance just like any other distance event [running/swimming]


tri-dork opinions not valid

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#7805084 - 08/04/14 06:13 PM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: nato2377]
gamby Offline
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Registered: 11/01/99
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Loc: RI
 Originally Posted By: nato2377
. how many dudes in their 40s do you see being competitive in the pros?


Chris Horner and George Hincapie (before he retired), but yeah.

Risky--mind you--I've made HUGE progress over the last 5 years. Also keep in mind that I was WAY into mountainbiking in the early-to-mid 90's and I still wasn't anything spectacular then. (what's nice is, I still have the bikehandling skills when I do have the occasion to go back into the woods, doe).

I'm thrilled with how far I've taken myself and plan on getting faster. It was very satisfying to be able to hang with the fast riders on last week's shop ride. That's a nice personal feat for me, IMHO. \:\)
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#7805137 - 08/04/14 06:54 PM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: stickaz_old]
bt0 Offline
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Registered: 02/22/10
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 Originally Posted By: stickaz
yea I am probably going to disagree as well. Pro Cycling is basically fitness/endurance just like any other distance event [running/swimming]


Swimming is hugely skill/form intensive.

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#7805141 - 08/04/14 07:00 PM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: bt0]
stickaz_old Offline
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Registered: 02/04/01
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not so much distance, at least imho [I am a former competitive swimmer]

to contradict myself, I will readily use the expression 'swimming is ~80% form and 20% fitness/conditioning/power'

but really that applies to the standard events that everyone swims---the sprints [200y or less]

the 1500m + events are basically all about..... fitness ;\) [hence my distance qualifier above]

nah you're probably right. even distance requires 'form mastery', but it's probably not 80/20 at the 1500m+ distances, probably closer to 60/40 or 50/50 or something...

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#7805197 - 08/04/14 07:53 PM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: nato2377]
Risky Business Offline
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 Originally Posted By: nato2377
in regards to road cycling,in the amateur ranks, yes i would agree with you that you can get better by simply putting in more work and not being naturally skilled/having skills. there are some fast guys in cat3 that cant "ride" worth a shit. once you get to cat2 and above, especially pro, that's not the case anymore...skills become important. some cant learn them and stay cat2/1. others can learn them or natually have the talent and then go pro... not everyone in soccer is naturally talented either..some learned it from a young age and developed the skills over the years, and some it just clicks for. same with cycling.


Bang on, exactly what I am saying. No point comparing pro levels as I have no personal experience but amateur competitive activities for cycling vs soccer is basically all I was comparing.

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#7806799 - 08/05/14 11:08 PM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: Risky Business]
gamby Offline
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Put in about the same at the TT tonight. Haven't gotten official time yet, but bike computer was right around 35:57. Pretty hot out, so I felt it. My hamstrings cramped again on the final sprint.
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#7809285 - 08/07/14 04:14 PM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: gamby]
nato2377 Offline
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had a side wind/quartering head wind most of the way. once i got closer to lancaster i kept hitting every light yellow just far enough away where i couldnt make it, so slowing down and starting up screwed my avg a bit. i hit the city too so i couldnt make a full hour but thats pretty close. take it or leave it!

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#7809350 - 08/07/14 05:09 PM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: nato2377]
stickaz_old Offline
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looks flyin' to me :bow:
I'm guessing I'd end up in the 18.x range hehehe

looks like you were stopped at lights for 5 mins on that run? ouch, sounds like my commute
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#7809363 - 08/07/14 05:27 PM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: stickaz_old]
nato2377 Offline
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yea i hit about 6 lights lol
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#7809801 - 08/08/14 12:10 AM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: nato2377]
gamby Offline
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That's hummin'.

Tonight's group ride got rained out, but a few of us who waited it out at the shop went out for 9 miles on the wet roads just because.
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#7810528 - 08/08/14 01:24 PM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: nato2377]
Risky Business Offline
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 Originally Posted By: nato2377




had a side wind/quartering head wind most of the way. once i got closer to lancaster i kept hitting every light yellow just far enough away where i couldnt make it, so slowing down and starting up screwed my avg a bit. i hit the city too so i couldnt make a full hour but thats pretty close. take it or leave it!


I am hoping to hit these numbers sooner than later, more realistic for me than your other sh!t not gonna happen.

I am not riding enough doe /excusemaker

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#7810787 - 08/08/14 03:26 PM Re: Cyclists that race - training [Re: Risky Business]
Impulsive Offline
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I don't see any scenario where I average 22 mph on an hour ride. I just hope on my bike with regular fitness clothes and pedal though. I think last year I did 40k/25M at 19mph average.
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