|
|
|||||||
Let's talk about GM's infamous ECOTEC engine. Is it the 4-cyninder 'big block' of today? Is it a technological marvel? ..or do you think it's just a crappy GM motor that is riddled with problems? Good stories, bad stories, story stories. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
ECOTEC engines are stout for what they are. They are usually what are found in turbo saabs. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
just keep your damn subaru |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
It's a great motor waiting for an outstanding chassis. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Originally Posted By: neonmike22 It's a great motor waiting for an outstanding chassis. It is in the solistice and saturn model. Also the new SS turbo cobalt is suppose to have alot better chassis dynamics. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Originally Posted By: Moof Is it the 4-cyninder 'big block' of today? Wouldn't the SRT-4 motor be more of the 4 cylinder big block? I'd think so as stout as it is. I could be wrong, I don't know much about the GM Eco, just going off what I think I know. Awesome! James |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
It's a completely average 4 cylinder. Almost every single manufacturer has a mediocre strength, 1.8-2.4 liter engine making somewhere in the 140-170 hp range. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Originally Posted By: Impulsive It's a completely average 4 cylinder. Almost every single manufacturer has a mediocre strength, 1.8-2.4 liter engine making somewhere in the 140-170 hp range. It's also handled 400whp with just Cam gears and LSJ connectiong rods/pistons. That's damn tough if you ask me. Like, B-series tough. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
stories about it's greatness are generally vastly exagerated. It's not ubber-weak, nor is it ubber strong. It doesn't have great heads, but they aren't bad heads either. It isn't ubber trick, nor is it a relic. It's just there. Keeping the space under the hood and b/w the firewall and front fascia filled as to keep it from looking stupid. It also gives the radiator something to do and provides heat for the interior. About the only thing that is amazing is it's average-ness, and how it turns dumb-@$$ blind fanboi's into weeping dumb-@$$ blind fanboi's. From a reliability standpoint, it's not horrid. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
I was working at Saturn when they introduced it in the L Series and Vue. The technicians seemed to like it and we never had any major problems that I can recall. Much better than the old 1.9 liter, but in hindsight maybe that's not saying much. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
I will say I had an Ion Rental about 9~ months ago and I beat some guy in a modified base RSX that couldn't drive from stoplight-to-stoplight. The NA engine isn't bad but it has a bit of vibration to it that I hadn't seen since the neon days. *very* reminiscent of my neon engine, although stock for stock it sounded better at high rpms lol not saying anything at all. Keep in mind with the cobalt, no matter how much of a deal you get, unless you put like 80% of the value down you're probably going to end up upside down on it. The resale isn't super strong on GM's entry level, even if it is way better than the cavalier. Aside from owning a new car at bargain basement prices (which is kinda cool, in its own way...) I see no really compelling reason to buy a cobalt. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
In stock form its not amazingly tough , GM says that the LSJ is only really safe to about 300hp on the stock rods and pistons. The block it self is fairly impressive. Heads like ugly says are nothing great, infact one of the engines it replaced had a better head. With easily sourced parts it becomes a much more capable motor ,although you prolly wont make 1000hp like GM has with them. the N/A ones are a pretty average engine, although the 2.4L does not get the best milage. I would like GM to make an under square version high N/A HP version and put it in a soltice. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
The new Ecotech turbo with a twin scroll turbo and direct injection on paper looks great. It's in the Solstice and the Sky,which (maybe cheating?) dominated the competition at the runoffs. What I thought was cool was that GM went ahead and paved the way for the enthusiast by writing the book for the tuner to get to whatever hp level they want to achieve. http://www.gmtunersource.com Maybe it is hype,but it seemed impressive when it first came out,not 4G impressive,but maybe SRT-4 or SR20 impressive. Here's a cool exerpt from a search I just did: Quote: chuckspeed01-27-2006, 07:11 AM Re: ecotec 4 cylinder... It's an interesting motor. Engine architecture is very good - I've spent a fair amount of time looking at the various pieces/parts as they're made. Block and head are both aluminum alloy, which eliminates the differentials in coefficients of thermal expansion that caused the Quad 4 to spit head gaskets out. Complete assembly is cast via the lost foam process up in Massena NY; a lost foam motor exhibits high dimensional stability during the pour, which allows the engineers to build in strength without sacrificing weight. Bottom end on these little guys is stout as hell - it's a deep skirt block. I don't recall if the bearing caps are crossbolted or not - I think they are, but then again, most alloy motors these days have crossbolted mains. The basic design of the bottom end lends itself to high rev, forced induction apps with minimal modification. Top end looks like someone lifted a page from the Universal Japanese Motorcyle handbook - 4v head with good breathing characteristics designed in right off the bat. Bone stock normally aspirated Solstices and the soon-to-be-released Saturn Sky's come with 177 HP, which is pretty much what you'd expect these days. The supercharged eco's are at 205 HP with *very* mild boost; the turbo'd units (scheduled for release late this year, BTW) are rated at 270 HP as someone mentioned earlier. Do keep in mind that speedparts follow an inverse curve when it comes to pricing. First few years they're really expensive...when there's enough demand for the parts, the cost comes down. First sets of alloy V8 heads were shockingly expensive (if y'all recall) and now a nice set of alloy SBC heads can be bought new for about $1200. Rate limiting event on Eco's when it comes to HP is gonna be forced induction - if you wanna go fast with one, it's gonna hafta have a blower or a turbo. The hot setups will be judged on how much boost they make - the goal most guys will try to break the 30 PSI mark on the street. If you figure the motor makes 200HP lightly modded, a 30 PSI motor will make *about* 600 HP. That was from some apparent hot rod site: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-66691.html And btw,do a search about the upcoming turbo Cobalt SS,supposedly dominated Nurburgring times by a huge margin for FWD sport compacts. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Apparently,you can download lots of GM proferred race research done on their cars here: http://tunersource.gmblogs.com/Racer-Tech/ECOtec-LSJ-Build-Book |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Originally Posted By: Moof It's also handled 400whp with just Cam gears and LSJ connectiong rods/pistons. That's damn tough if you ask me. Like, B-series tough. Even Zetec's and QR25's can do that. Almost any 4 cyl out there can swap rods, pistons, use the stock crank/cams and make 350-400WH with boost and good tuning. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Originally Posted By: Impulsive Originally Posted By: Moof It's also handled 400whp with just Cam gears and LSJ connectiong rods/pistons. That's damn tough if you ask me. Like, B-series tough. Even Zetec's and QR25's can do that. Almost any 4 cyl out there can swap rods, pistons, use the stock crank/cams and make 350-400WH with boost and good tuning. Quote: and a quote from someone who claims to have driven one... "the boost comes on at 2300 just like it has been stated in the writeup's on it and it pulls....HARD! The car has very quick turning ratio, it makes my brother's LS feel like a 1980 BOAT full sizer GM put out then whereas the turbo feels more like a Vette: quick and nimble. The no lift shift feature actually works pretty well and DOES shave time off your shifting (assuming no mis-shift) and the launch control/competitive mode does exist and its the button to the right of the steering wheel on teh silver trim piece. Brake pedal feel was somewhat firm with feedback, I haven't used it repeatedly so I cannot judge fade or mushiness after prolonged use, but its a brembo, highly doubtful any negatives. The car is just phenominal, the seats hold well, they're ultralux suede material and the drivers seat has a bolster, rear seats also get this insert material. Good support in the front seats too." JMO CobaltSS JK dude,but sometimes it's hard not to get caught up in the new car hype. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
The new turbo is nice from the engine standpoint, it's too bad it has to go in the Cobalt with much of a refresh. Then again, with the Caliber SRT-4 being a bit of a let down, the MS3 aging and the GTi/Si/Spec V not matching the performance, it's a decent option. But the base Ecotec...well you could look at almost every car from a Focus, to a Sentra to a Civic to a Lancer to a Caliber to an Elantra and find similar base engines in output and strength. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
I think you'd have to be crazy to choose a caliber over an ms3/gti based on anything but GM's crazy rebates. Even if you're not interested in handling those other two are quite a bit nicer overall based on the Cobalt SS a guy I worked with got a year ago and the one I sat in at the auto show. I mean the souped up cobalt is head and shoulders above the z24 it replaces but the rest of the competition is just made up of nicer cars. It does have price going for it, at least usually... |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Remember, some people value performance over being nice. My Spec V was "nicer" than my SRT-4, but it didn't hold a candle to the performance. Obviously, I'm not the same buyer as I was when I had time to race and mod, but the Cobalt will be about bang for the buck performance. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
the 2.3L T7(saab) Ecotec motor had glass pistons that couldn't handle much over 300HP This COULD be because saab tuners are F'ng idiots, and tune to ridiculous EGTs using stock (tiny) turbos and crappy exhaust manifolds.... But it could also be shallow ring lands. ( I never cared enough to research it) The motor seems pretty stout, but I can't see how it'd be any stronger than the srt4/EVO motor. As someone stated, GM has published a how-to to build a 1kHP ecotec with off-the-shelf parts. (THAT'S worth something to me) |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Originally Posted By: UglyValiant stories about it's greatness are generally vastly exagerated. It's not ubber-weak, nor is it ubber strong. It doesn't have great heads, but they aren't bad heads either. It isn't ubber trick, nor is it a relic. It's just there. Keeping the space under the hood and b/w the firewall and front fascia filled as to keep it from looking stupid. It also gives the radiator something to do and provides heat for the interior. About the only thing that is amazing is it's average-ness, and how it turns dumb-@$$ blind fanboi's into weeping dumb-@$$ blind fanboi's. From a reliability standpoint, it's not horrid. The people that were making 800+whp on Honda's when the cobalt SS came out have been raving about this motor, and it's head. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Originally Posted By: Impulsive Remember, some people value performance over being nice. My Spec V was "nicer" than my SRT-4, but it didn't hold a candle to the performance. Obviously, I'm not the same buyer as I was when I had time to race and mod, but the Cobalt will be about bang for the buck performance. id say the only thing it has on say the gti or Si is straight line speed. handling/grip/braking/and feel is probably better on the other two. theres more to performance than just straight line speed. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Originally Posted By: Mr. Knowitall. Originally Posted By: UglyValiant stories about it's greatness are generally vastly exagerated. It's not ubber-weak, nor is it ubber strong. It doesn't have great heads, but they aren't bad heads either. It isn't ubber trick, nor is it a relic. It's just there. Keeping the space under the hood and b/w the firewall and front fascia filled as to keep it from looking stupid. It also gives the radiator something to do and provides heat for the interior. About the only thing that is amazing is it's average-ness, and how it turns dumb-@$$ blind fanboi's into weeping dumb-@$$ blind fanboi's. From a reliability standpoint, it's not horrid. The people that were making 800+whp on Honda's when the cobalt SS came out have been raving about this motor, and it's head. where abouts was this raving taking place? |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Originally Posted By: Euphoric [quote=Impulsive]Remember, some people value performance over being nice. My Spec V was "nicer" than my SRT-4, but it didn't hold a candle to the performance. Obviously, I'm not the same buyer as I was when I had time to race and mod, but the Cobalt will be about bang for the buck performance. Suposeidly the new one is pretty good in the twisty department. Oh and lots of honda guys have given respect to what the ecotec can do. id say the only thing it has on say the gti or Si is straight line speed. handling/grip/braking/and feel is probably better on the other two. theres more to performance than just straight line speed. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Originally Posted By: Impulsive Remember, some people value performance over being nice. My Spec V was "nicer" than my SRT-4, but it didn't hold a candle to the performance. Obviously, I'm not the same buyer as I was when I had time to race and mod, but the Cobalt will be about bang for the buck performance. Since when does the cobalt perform better than the ms3!? |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Originally Posted By: Quad4_driver Originally Posted By: Euphoric [quote=Impulsive]Remember, some people value performance over being nice. My Spec V was "nicer" than my SRT-4, but it didn't hold a candle to the performance. Obviously, I'm not the same buyer as I was when I had time to race and mod, but the Cobalt will be about bang for the buck performance. Suposeidly the new one is pretty good in the twisty department. Oh and lots of honda guys have given respect to what the ecotec can do. id say the only thing it has on say the gti or Si is straight line speed. handling/grip/braking/and feel is probably better on the other two. theres more to performance than just straight line speed. Nice post, evenhanded. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Originally Posted By: spotch Originally Posted By: Impulsive Remember, some people value performance over being nice. My Spec V was "nicer" than my SRT-4, but it didn't hold a candle to the performance. Obviously, I'm not the same buyer as I was when I had time to race and mod, but the Cobalt will be about bang for the buck performance. Since when does the cobalt perform better than the ms3!? The SS version with 260HP will most likely outperform the MS3. Of course this is just going off HP/Weight figures. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
err his post contains half my post |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
I am just wondering how long it will take Nissan/Honda to realize they need a turbo powered car to compete. Its a shame nissan couldve hit a home run with the spec-v if they just put the sr20DET in it. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Originally Posted By: HoustonRSX I am just wondering how long it will take Nissan/Honda to realize they need a turbo powered car to compete. but do they really? People will still buy the cars....and the new engines respond quite well to bolt ons and a reflash. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Originally Posted By: Euphoric Originally Posted By: HoustonRSX I am just wondering how long it will take Nissan/Honda to realize they need a turbo powered car to compete. but do they really? People will still buy the cars....and the new engines respond quite well to bolt ons and a reflash. Stock for stock and mod for mod a factory F/I car will always perform better. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Meh, I think it adds a little spice to the lineup. I mean FI is great and all but if every sport compact on the market is a turbo 2.0-2.4 it's a little redundant, no? I don't know that I personally would buy an Si but at least the option's out there... they seem to be somewhat popular around here. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Originally Posted By: spotch Meh, I think it adds a little spice to the lineup. I mean FI is great and all but if every sport compact on the market is a turbo 2.0-2.4 it's a little redundant, no? I don't know that I personally would buy an Si but at least the option's out there... they seem to be somewhat popular around here. Ok so than when all were n/a it wasnt redundant? The new Si/Spec-v/and to an extent the GTI are outclassed by better options if you are looking for a sporty compact car. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
ECOTEC Power from GM "Birth of the Ultimate Import Fighter?" GM Racing"s 747-horse 2.0L I4 ECOTEC Turbo Drag Engine At some point General Motors became aware that there is a thing called "Import Performance," which has postively shaken the entire performance market. GM, for obvious reasons, likes to call this phenomenon "FWD Performance." Eventually, someone at GM realized the company had a new engine called the Ecotec that -- with a few "cheap" tricks--had the potential to beguile a few folks currently exclusively in love with certain Japanese and European Import Performers. GM scraped together little money and threw it at a small team of experienced racers and engine builders at skunkworks in Southern California with the goal of ascertaining what a 2.2-liter Ecotec could do if you whipped it good. "The request was for 800 hp in four months in an engine that would live for 20 - 40 drag runs," says Stephen Bothwell, who came in from the cold to lead GM's Ecotec Drag Engine project after 2.5 years on the road racing GM's Vortec 4200 in-line six in rally trucks playing the roads and non-roads of places like Baja, Mexico. "The attitude early on in some quarters," says Bothwell, "was people laughed at the idea of a 700-hp Ecotec. But that was then." Bothwell began by scoping out what sort of power and torque would be required to get people's attention in the "FWD Performance" world, and followed up on that with a crash program to push the envelope of an Ecotec. Hard. The GM Racing team set about to find the outer limits of an Ecotec the old fashioned way--by progressively blowing more nitrous through it on an engine dyno until something broke. Then repairing the engine with stronger parts (sending any damaged parts to a lab for forensic analysis), and pushing on until the next weakest link died and went to Hell. And so on. Quest for Failure: Nitrous With this in mind, GM Racing bolted a factory-stock Ecotec to an engine dyno and wired up a DFI/Accel programmable engine management system to control it via a data link connected to a laptop computer with Windows-based graphical user interface. The team then constructed a custom three-stage nitrous system designed to spray a cold fog of nitrous into the Ecotec at a single point near the throttle body, delivering additional fuel to match the oxytgen-enriched air via increased pulsewidth from the stock electronic fuel injectors. [that's a dry nitrous system for anyone that wants to know] GM Racing began the tuning process on a Heinen-Freud water-brake dyno using the stock intake and exhaust manifolds and a modified stock downpipe plumbed without muffler directly into the dyno cell's exhaust removal system. It turns out a well-tuned stock 10:1 2.2-liter Ecotec in the above configuration actually develops 168 crankshaft hp (which is above the factory rating of 140-150 as installed in various vehicles in the United States and Europe). At this point, the team began to pump up the volume in a rigouous series of tests while a crew stood by with fire extinguishers. Testing at a given power level colcluded when the engine could survive a series of 8-10 full-power dyno "Sprints" from peak torque through maximum power in 50 rpm steps, colcluding with at least six seconds at full power, for a total of at least 20 very hard seconds. GM Racing successively verified the Ecotec survived happily at 200, 225 and250 hp over numerous dyno pulls. However, as the Ecotec pushed through 283 hp at 4400 rpm, all four connecting rods simultaneously failed catastrophically and smashed through the side of the block. Laboratory analysis subsequently revealed a mid-beam compression fracture on all four stock powder-metal rods. All other components checked out fine. GM Racing installed a package of components you'd certainly install if you were taking the trouble to open an engine to upgrade the connecting rods: Super-duty forged Crower X-beam rods--plus 10:1 JE forged pistons with thicker top ring lands and Hastings moly ring packs. The GM Racing team installed larger fuel injectors, and continued lean on the engine. Power quickly advanced to 350 hp, at which point the engine ran out of breathing room on the exhaust side. The ration of Reactants (exhaust) to Products (inlet charge) is very high on a nitrous motor. GM Racing found the stock Ecotec exzhaust manifold became sufficiently restrictive above 350-hp that injudiciously adding more nitrous could actually make less horsepower--due to dramatically decreased efficiencies in scavenging exhaust gases from the combusion chamber clearance volume. "We finally made 370-375 hp on nitrous," says Bothwell, "but the engine was really pissed off." **Building the Turbo Ecotec** At this point, GM Racing abandoned nitrous, built an efficient turbo Ecotec, and pushed on with the business of making power. The strategy was, make it efficient from Day One, then turn up the revs and boost. Bothwell's goal: 10,000 rpm and 800 hp. "We knew the stock crank would need replacing by 500 hp," says Bothwell. "Since we were going to need the rev capability, breathing and rod-stroke ratio of a square bore-stroke engine, we had Crower build a de-stroked forged billet 2.0-liter crankshaft and used it immediately from 350-hp." Newk, larger 4143 7/16-inch main studs replaced the head bolts to hold the new crank firmly in place. The GM Team designed a tube-type stainless header fabricated to optimize the collection of exhaust pulses in the correct order to minimize collisions. With plenty of boost, the GM team knew the stock scroll-type plastic intake manifold could flow sufficient air to 500 hp. Since the goal was way beyond 500 hp, they fabricated an aluminum, straight-port dry intake manifold with high-volume plenum for the turbo Ecotec. To regulate big air flow, GM Racing pilfered the throttle body from an LS1 V8. GM Racing designed the turbo system around an advanced innovative Turbo turbocharger with plenty of part to upgrade and tweak performance as required, plus a huge waste-gate and pulse-modulated electronic controller. The GM team fabricated a gigantic custom air-water intercooler that could be cooled continuously on the dyno with tap water or with a dry-ice heat sink at the track.GM Racing subcontractor Shaver Specialties dramatically upgraded the Ecotec head with significant porting and maximum size lightweight stainless-steel valves. Current SS flow-bench data shows the ported head capable of flowing 272 cfm of air at 0.450 lift and 175-207 cfm exhaust. With valve seals removed to prevent high-lift collisions with the retainers, Crower cams provide total lift and duration of .46482 inches and 221.4 degrees of duration, total exhaust lift and duration of .46737 inches and 221.3 degrees. Shaver employed a proprietary GM Racing solution to forestall valve float problems at high-rpm and boost (with an eventual goal of 10,000 rpm redline. GM Racing decided to delete the Ecotec balance shafts). By this time, the Turbo Ecotec powerplant had grown significantly in width. The GM Team decided to rotate it forward by 33 degrees. This would help deal with multi-G effects on oil drain and dramatically reduce the difficulty of packing it in a racecar. GM Racing converted the Ecotec to a multi-stage dry-sump oil system designed to reduce crankcase windage and thus increase power by scavenging oil and crankcase gases directly from the cylinder head and oil pan into a high-volume external tank. From the tank a separate pump would provide superior low-temperature, high-pressure lubrication with reduced aeration directly to the short block, head and turbocharger. The GM team built a narrow, low-volume, forward biased V-shaped oil pan that funneled return oil to dual dry-sump scavenge pickups. They opened up windows in the girdle of the "Slant-Four" to prevent oil from puddling at a recloated low point and killing horsepwoer by interfering with the crank at high rpm. Quest for Failure: Boost The new turbo Ecotec immediately cranked out 350 hp at 7000 rpm on 2 psi boost, and rapidly closed in on 450 hp with no failures. "Our tuning strategy," says Bothwell. "Was to start rich with a computer generated air-fuel map and sneak up on rich-best torque." The new turbo Ecotec was defiantly responsive: GM Racing set idle at 1800 rpm, and if you punched it quick, the unloaded engine would blow completely through the 10K rev-limiter in less than a tenth of a second. The team expected an Ecotec-powered drag car to launch at 8000 rpm and run all the way through the gears in the quarter mnile, so they cared mainly about the 5-10K rpm range. In this range, GM Racing wanted the turbocharger to achieve any level of "full boost" nearly 100-percent of the time. As testing continued, GM Racing monitored EGT and exhaust gas oxygen on all four cylinders. Full-power target EGT was 1,230-degrees F, and would never exceed 1,350-degrees. The team continuously logged all sensor data throughout the power quest. The routine was, run the dyno manually at an array of "break points" of speed, loading and boost, holding the engine steady at each point to tweak various parameters that define optimal rich/best torque--using EGT and wide-range 02 data, fuel-rail pressure, torque and power readouts, a remote-control electronic boost controller and a laptop computer to recalibrate injection pulsewidth and spark advance. Throughout turbo Ecotec dyno testing, GM Racing chilled the air-water intercooler with fresh tap water. At high levels of boost, pressurized air would enter the cooler at 200 degrees, leave at 105-110 degrees, with some creep due to packaging compromises and negligible pressure-drop. At the track, a dry ice heat-sink would reduce the intake air exiting the cooler to 60-70 degrees. At 450 hp and 8 psi boost, the GM team began blowing head gaskets. One theory was that core-shifting in the block was causing the gasket to fail (Because some Honda motors have this problem). "I didn't buy it, says Bothwell. "But we tried converting the Ecotec block to a solid deck. This, unfortunately, just wasted time and destroyed some blocks, probably due to thermal-expansion issues." The GM team decided the head was flexing. Returning to a stock-deck Ecotec block, they switrched to high-strength H11 head studs. This restricted the head gasket leakage and failure exclusively to outboard sections of the fire ring at either end of the head on cylinders one and four. The GM team solved this problem by reinforcing the two problem areas with twin studs that threaded through bored machined into the upper structure of the head and jammed against the outboard fire-ring areas of the head next to cylinders one and four. The engine now happily made 500 hp-- and ran smack into the outer limits of stock coil-onplug performance. integral microprocessors will not allow the stock coils to energize and fire in the presence of excessive voltage. Short-term solution: GMR converted to a cam driven distributor ignition with industrial-strength super coil. Unfortunately, as power climbed toward 600, the entire block-head interfacr began leaking from extreme compression pressures. The GM team pressed stainless O-rings into machined grooved in the head, machined receiver grooves in the block and installed a soft copper head gasket. Problem solved. At 600 hp, theextreme power and engine speeds began distorting and flexing the aftermarket super-duty 4350 wrist pins. Left unattended, this would eventually tear out the pin towers below the wrist pins. In this same power range, the Ecotec's ring packs began failing. GM Racing opened the wrist pin bores in the p istons by .003-inch and installed thicker H11 wrist pins with thicker walls. The team simultaneously migrated from the 1.0-x 1.0-x 3.0-inch aftermarket rings to Total Seal 1.5- x 1.5- 4.0-inch ring packs. The Ecotec was finally reliable to 650 hp at 19 psi of boost--a relatively low level of boost, indicating outstanding volumetric efficiency. The GM team verified acceptable stress on all parts and lowered oil pressure to 85 psi after concluding that higher pump settings simply robbed horsepower and excessively aerated the oil. The Push for 800 Horsepower Consider this: 800 hp is a lot. On a 122 cubic inch motor with 750hp--three-quarters of a thousand--you're basically dealing with 6.14 hp per cubic inch. Pressures and stresses of all kinds--thermal and mechanical loading across the board--escalate to extreme levels. A Chevrolet 5.7-liter LS1 V8 with this much specific power (horseposer per cubic inch) would be making 2,137 hp. The super-modified Ecotec was able to achieve a reliable 750 hp on 24 psi of boost at 9000 rpm with 10:1 compression and an unspecified fuel with extremely high octane and excellent range, GM Racing began to encounter such extreme cylinder pressures and thermal expansion that the thin-wall stock cylinder sleeves and support structure began to warp and go out of round, split. Cylinder piston became a problem. As of this writing, the team has developed a promising new "Super-Turbo" Ecotec, built in a process where GMR machinist entirely removes the stock sleeves and aluminum cylinder support structure/core, pressing thick, custom-built bottom-flanged steel sleeves into receiver bores machined directly into the floor of the water jacket. GMR reinforces the new extra-thick full-floating sleeves with a pool of epoxy that effectively raises the floor of the water jacket to surround the base of the cylinders, GM Racing increaased the cylinder bore clearance in the Super-Turbo engine by 0.001-inch, and shot-peened the piston skirts to help retain oil. Analysis It's amazing that any components whatsoever designed for a stock 140 hp 2.2-liter Ecotec would survive on an extreme power plant making more than six times its power. However the stock Ecotec block and main/girdle structure did survive to 750 hp, as did the stock sleeves. The stock main bearings survived. The stock stamped roller finger-followers were effective to at least 9700 rpm, as were the hydraulic lifters. The oil passages remained stock to 800 hp. The stock chains, guides, tensioners and water pump worked all the way to heaven. The stock head survived with minor strengthening and massive breathing modifications. Many other components were good for two to four times stock power (see Chart). GM Powertrain engineers designed a base engine with many stock components that were above and beyond what was needed for stock performance. "The crank support structure of the Ecotec is unbelievably strong," says Bothwell. "We detected no core shifting under the most extreme conditions." The engine-fuel combination turned out to be extremely knock-resistant. The Ecotec combustion chamber is efficient, with an excellent tumble and high flame speed, and the engine was able to run 10:1 compression without knock at boost pressures as high as 36 psi at 21 degrees spark advance. In a vehicle, the on-board computer is aware of which gear is in use and varies maximum boost accordingly to avoid detonation and traction control problems. From the excellent power-boost ratio of 750 hp at 24 psi, one can infer that careful turbo selection, camshaft selection and timing, good intercooling and carefully considered turbo system geometry result in a happy situation in which inlet manifold pressure exceeds backpressure in a happy phenomenon called crossover, where horsepower really skyrockets. Turbo configuration and size would change three times during the tuning process. The highest-flow turbo is currently capable of delivering 40 psi boost at very high power levels. The largest Innovative wastegate is unable to divert enough exhaust to keep boost from creeping to a minimum of 15 psi when heavily loaded on the dyno, though this is not a problem on the track. What is the Ecotec"s final frontier? So far, unknown; but we'll be looking to the track in 2002 for the answers to that question. (The above article was Quoted from the 2002 Turbo & High-Tech Performance Magazine - March 2002.) |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Originally Posted By: HoustonRSX Originally Posted By: Euphoric Originally Posted By: HoustonRSX I am just wondering how long it will take Nissan/Honda to realize they need a turbo powered car to compete. but do they really? People will still buy the cars....and the new engines respond quite well to bolt ons and a reflash. Stock for stock and mod for mod a factory F/I car will always perform better. stock for stock? not so much, totally depends. only in recent years have the FI cars really had a big advantage over the n/a counterparts stock for stock... mod for mod turbo cars have always had an advantage , which is definately understandable but in recent years (k series) that advantage is more even or even behind lol gti for those first bunch of bolt ons. k series has a turbo like performance upgrade from basic bolt ons/reflash. and by that I mean the difference in 1/4 mile time and traps from before and after mods. No way a b16 or b18 is gonna go from low 90 traps to 100 mph traps with some bolt ons and a reflash. the itr is already close at around 98ish mph but even with some more basic mods youd only pick up a mph or two. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Originally Posted By: Euphoric Originally Posted By: HoustonRSX Originally Posted By: Euphoric Originally Posted By: HoustonRSX I am just wondering how long it will take Nissan/Honda to realize they need a turbo powered car to compete. but do they really? People will still buy the cars....and the new engines respond quite well to bolt ons and a reflash. Stock for stock and mod for mod a factory F/I car will always perform better. stock for stock? not so much, totally depends. only in recent years have the FI cars really had a big advantage over the n/a counterparts stock for stock... mod for mod turbo cars have always had an advantage , which is definately understandable but in recent years (k series) that advantage is more even or even behind lol gti for those first bunch of bolt ons. K series while a great N/A motor will not be able to compete with the new F/I'd factory compact cars. You will need cams/hondata(reflash or kpro), full exhaust, intake, vavle springs, and other things to compete with a F/I'd car with very basic upgrades. Even with just ecu/boltons you have just reached what those turbo cars do stock. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
When they were all NA you had the GSR, the 2.5RS, celica GT-S, GTi VR6, etc. Yeah they were all NA and relatively slow but there were revvy ones and torquey ones, etc. I just appreciate having a few different options. Same reason I wouldn't want all the cars in the segment to be coupes or hatchbacks or whatever, even though I'm big on hatchbacks lately. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Originally Posted By: spotch When they were all NA you had the GSR, the 2.5RS, celica GT-S, GTi VR6, etc. Yeah they were all NA and relatively slow but there were revvy ones and torquey ones, etc. I just appreciate having a few different options. Same reason I wouldn't want all the cars in the segment to be coupes or hatchbacks or whatever, even though I'm big on hatchbacks lately. I am sure there still will be high-revving turbo cars, and turbo cars that only rev to 6500. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
personally i could never get past the gimmiky name "ecotec". call that stupid, but in most cases a gimmick is used to try and overshadow some shortcoming (not to call the engine a turd, just saying). |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
iirc a chipped gti is still quite a bit slower than a reflashed/ intake k series. Im not quite sure what mbc or simple bolt on srt's are trapping.(100-102ish?) Cobalt SS(turbo one who knows since its not out but even the scharged one doesnt get much from simple upgrades ) bolt on reflash k series have seen low 100 traps.. I think the srt turbo is probably good till what? 106 mph before you need to change it out(Im not really sure on this one). and even being a tad behind still.... the gap is much smaller, so why would honda NEED to have a turbo car? People will still buy it and if they want to give it some bolt ons they know the car will be pretty close to the other ones(or quicker, depending) The kotinyvw turbo needs to go well before that. Point is, its not as big of a gap as it used to be. and the k series sees turbo like speed upgrade from simple mods especially compared to the older b series. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
You are taking the best kseries reflash/bolt on times. The SRT turbo is good till 108ishmph, and than its only a turbo upgrade to get more. Whereas a kseries motor will need a F/I setup or major major N/A work to get to that. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
so a turbo upgrade isnt major? but some cams are? |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Originally Posted By: Euphoric so a turbo upgrade isnt major? but some cams are? Not on a turbo car, its equvilant to cams on a N/A car. No cams for the Kseries are going to give you a 8mph gain. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Originally Posted By: HoustonRSX Originally Posted By: spotch When they were all NA you had the GSR, the 2.5RS, celica GT-S, GTi VR6, etc. Yeah they were all NA and relatively slow but there were revvy ones and torquey ones, etc. I just appreciate having a few different options. Same reason I wouldn't want all the cars in the segment to be coupes or hatchbacks or whatever, even though I'm big on hatchbacks lately. I am sure there still will be high-revving turbo cars, and turbo cars that only rev to 6500. Really? Because I don't see any lol. What car company is going to build a high revving turbo car, anyway? What's the point? The whole point of revving high is to make up for low displacement, and wouldn't it be harder/more expensive to design a turbo that works well at 7500+ that doesn't lag? I mean yeah it's possible but we're talking about the bargain basement cars here, that's not going to be all that cheap to throw together I would think. Even the turbo cars that are on the market now run out of steam at higher rpms... The wrx/gti/ms3/etc all seem to have great midrange and meh up top. It's america for a reason, give us the freedom to choose! lol |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
STI in japans rev to 8k, Evo's here still rev to 7k or so. The Meh up top you say is from a small turbo |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Originally Posted By: HoustonRSX STI in japans rev to 8k, Evo's here still rev to 7k or so. The Meh up top you say is from a small turbo Dude read my post. You're talking 30++ thousand dollar cars. I'm asking you what car company is going to put a JDM STi drivetrain in a 22 thousand dollar car and sell it here. All of the turbo sport compacts on the market now are midrange-heavy. It's cheaper and easier to do it that way, and it's enough to sell so why spend a shit ton on R+D and manufacturing cost. You saying "Oh i'm sure they'll design a bunch of high revving bargain basement turbo sport compacts that make good power to 8k" is counterfactual. I can't see anything on the US market right now for the low 20s that lets me understand how you draw that conclusion. America's the land of midrange turbos anyway, at least at affordable levels. Even the dyno of the new EVO that was posted here weeks back vs a stock evo IX had it pegged with more midrange at the cost of topend. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Dont make me send some shavers to you now saspotch! |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
|
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Originally Posted By: HoustonRSX Dont make me send some shavers to you now saspotch! lol, they'd better have a lot of time on their hands! EDIT: You know, if we got the Sti JDM motor I might see myself swayed. I just hate how nearly all the affordable/cheap turbo cars in this country are all midrange. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Originally Posted By: spotch Originally Posted By: HoustonRSX Dont make me send some shavers to you now saspotch! lol, they'd better have a lot of time on their hands! Oh the first group will have some weed eaters, than a lawnmower, than trimmers to speed things up. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Speaking of which, do they still sell Pepsi Si in tejas? |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Nope. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Originally Posted By: HoustonRSX You are taking the best kseries reflash/bolt on times. The SRT turbo is good till 108ishmph, and than its only a turbo upgrade to get more. Whereas a kseries motor will need a F/I setup or major major N/A work to get to that. Years ago when I cared about SRT-4's, people were making 320whp with a 3" exhaust, CAI, Ebay intercooler and a $40 map clamp. I don't know much about MS3's or GTi's, but it seems like pretty big numbers can be had with not too many mods. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Originally Posted By: Euphoric err his post contains half my post whoops. thats what i get for posting from work in a rush. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
Originally Posted By: Euphoric iirc a chipped gti is still quite a bit slower than a reflashed/ intake k series. Im not quite sure what mbc or simple bolt on srt's are trapping.(100-102ish?) Cobalt SS(turbo one who knows since its not out but even the scharged one doesnt get much from simple upgrades ) GM stage 2 upgrade(injectors reflash and pulley) ,and bolt-ons have produced 280whp on S/C cobalts, that should be 104-106mph traps. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
I like mine. I can get close to 38mpg driving it like a grandma. close to 40mpg if I don't break 65 on the highway. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
ray ban wayfarer eyeglasses Michael Kors Outlet nike shoes ugg boots classic hogan rebel donna zapatillas nike baratas Veste Moncler Femme Ugg Noir Pas Cher Nike Air Huarache For Sale longchamp bags on sale nike tn pas cher Ugg Pas Cher Femme new yeezy shoes scarpe nike Moncler Jacket Womens Ugg Button newest lebron shoes Nike Shoes Sale Store retro jordans for cheap pandora online nike air max running shoes Nike Pas Cher Homme Air Max Femme Yeezy Black Original Ugg Boots pandora jewelry store Pandora Beads And Charms Toms Outlet Online nike sb stefan janoski Ugg Grise Pas Cher ugg boots for women uggs for cheap Lebron 13 Air Max 90 Nike Air Women Ugg Homme Pas cher 23 is back Nike Zapatos christian louboutin outlet canada goose jackets on sale nike air schuhe herren Bottes Ugg Femme Pas Cher Nike Store Timberland Outlet Air Jordan News chaussure basket homme Anelli Pandora pandora charm bracelet sale cheap christian louboutin toms shoes outlet ugg store Nike Pas Cher Femme portafoglio michael kors Moncler Store adidas outlet stores online Veste Moncler Pas Cher Ugg Outlet Online Store chaussure Nike homme Air Jordan Release Date pandora beads Nike Online Store Adidas Superstar Ugg Classic Tall Ray ban sale online Jordan Future Ugg boots Sale ugg boots outlet online Adidas Shoes Discount Marketplace canada goose sale online ugg boots cheap nfl store nike sportschuhe cheap real uggs Nike Air Max Boutique cheap uggs Chaussure Nike Air Max Pas Cher nike joggesko new jordan releases Cheap Stone Island Jackets Oakley Outlet Sheepskin Ugg Boots Moncler Outlet Online louboutin heels sac a main michael kors Stone Island Outlet abercrombie and fitch store religion store Boutique Ugg coach factory outlet online Doudoune Moncler Pas Cher uggs outlet Uggs Pas Cher Soldes hogan scontate Uomo Hogan Jordan Store Canada Goose Outlet Nike Air Sneakers prada outlet reebok running shoes Nike Air Max Cheap ugg factory outlet pandora bracelet charms pandora rings Soldes Ugg nike schuhe günstig official NHL jerseys Michael Kors handbag discount adidas schoenen Michael Kors nike air jordan pas cher uggs for women longchamp tote bag Uggs Outlet Store nike damenschuhe zapatillas running nike mercurial soccer cleats Air Nike Chestnut Ugg Boots canada goose jacket outlet adidas kläder moncler girls Doudoune Moncler Solde air force one pas cher Nike Air 90 botas de futbol Soccer Boots Outlet nike Nike Factory Store Doudoune Femme Pas Cher Timberland skor nike free womens nike air max Nike Air Jordan 11 Pandora Official Website australia uggs outlet Doudoune Moncler Site Officiel chaussures de foot pas cher Ugg Boots On Clearance new pandora charms Michael Kors handbag on sale air jordan Air Huarache Air Max Sneakers cheap air max outlet nike jordan shoes Ray-Ban Official Discounted Site Jordan Sneakers For Sale sac coach soldes chaussures nike pas cher Canada Goose Outlet Store michael kors handbags on sale fitflops sale uk zapatos de futbol nike tru religion jeans ugg outlet online Cheap Michael Kors Chaussure Nike Pas Cher Womens Ugg Boots nike sportschuhe damen Oakley Sunglasses Cheap hyperdunk 2014 ugg clearance vans shoe store Moncler Sale Air Max For Sale nike sneakers Sportschuhe Nike Botte Ugg Femme Coach Bags On Sale adidas outlet Toms Shoes For Women Nike Air Max 90 scarpe hogan outlet cheap nike air max pandora outlet store australia uggs outlet goedkope nike air max Orecchini Pandora Adidas Originals Superstar Air Jordan Retro Sale cheap uggs for women huarache sneakers billige nike sko Bottes Ugg Pas Cher nike air moncler jacket sale Canada Goose Official Site zapatilla adidas Ugg Pas Cher En France Negozi Pandora moncler coats for women converse store adidas store nike chaussures Sneakers Nike Jordan Schoenen toms sale Michael Kors Handbags Discount Boty Nike Air Canada Goose Outlet moncler outlet Pandora Store Ugg Femme Pas Cher michael kors bags outlet 0114Sjcg |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||
nike air max running shoes christian louboutin outlet Air Max 90 Adidas Shoes Discount Marketplace Nike Air Jordan 11 scarpe hogan outlet ugg clearance Adidas Originals Superstar Oakley Sunglasses Cheap Kobe Shoes Nike Nike Shoes Discount Marketplace cheap uggs Air Max Pas Cher Original Ugg Boots canada goose jackets on sale nike mercurial soccer cleats chaussure Nike homme zapatillas running Doudoune Moncler Femme Pas Cher Jordan Sneakers For Sale toms sale Pandora Store Sale Adidas Originals Stan Smith Canada Goose Outlet new yeezy shoes ugg store Ray Ban Sunglasses Online moncler jacket sale Ray ban sale online Nike Air Sneakers Nike Shoes Sale Store Michael Kors nike schuhe günstig The official UGG fitflops sale uk Canada Goose Outlet adidas outlet Nike Zapatos Michael Kors Handbags Discount pandora outlet store air force one pas cher Nike Online Store adidas store Nike Air Women goedkope nike air max Coach Bags On Sale Air Nike Air Max Sneakers Adidas Neo Discount Sale converse store Hugo Boss Sale Pandora Store zapatillas nike baratas Nike Shox Cheap Ray-Ban Official Discounted Site new jordan releases UGG BOOTS FOR WOMEN Boost Yeezy Sale On Line uggs outlet nike jordan shoes zapatilla adidas ADIDAS NMD SALE ON LINE religion store Discount Air Max pandora jewelry store nfl store huarache sneakers longchamp bags on sale Negozi Pandora Nike Roshe Run Sale nike joggesko Boutique Ugg moncler outlet TOMS SHOES OUTLET nike air abercrombie and fitch store Jordan Shoes Air nike shoes Doudoune Moncler Pas Cher zapatos de futbol nike chaussure basket homme Canada goose dam Nike Air Huarache For Sale billige nike sko Chaussure Nike Air Max Pas Cher Nike Soccer Cleats Boots Moncler Sale Uggs Pas Cher Soldes Michael Kors Outlet Nike Air Max Goedkoop botas de futbol Pandora Official Website louboutin heels Ugg boots Sale Yeezy Black Hogan Outlet cheap nike air max Nike Factory Store new pandora charms Cheap Michael Kors Vans Black Sneakers Jordan Schoenen Soccer Boots Outlet nike prada outlet canada goose jacket outlet Nike Air Pas Cher Scarpe Air Max nike air jordan pas cher nike sportschuhe hogan scontate Air Max Kopen Air Jordan Retro Sale Air max dam Air max levně Timberland Outlet cheap uggs for women newest lebron shoes ugg factory outlet Descuentos Nike Yeezy Boost Sale Online Nike Air Max Cheap Pandora Store Nike Shox discount Sale nike sb stefan janoski Ugg Pas Cher En France nike sneakers Ugg Outlet Online Store Stone Island Outlet Moncler Jackets Discount Marketplace Moncler Outlet Online scarpe nike Doudoune Moncler Site Officiel Nike Air Damen womens nike air max Air Max Femme Boty Nike Air Adidas Superstar Bottes Ugg Femme Pas Cher Yeezy Shoes Discount Marketplace Adidas Superstar Sale Online Moncler Outlet Store Ugg Pas Cher Femme nike tn pas cher pandora beads Nike Air 90 chaussures nike pas cher Canada Goose Womens Coats reebok running shoes retro jordans for cheap günstige nike schuhe Yeezy Men official NHL jerseys Nike Store Toms Outlet Online uggs for women vans shoe store Nike Pas Cher Femme Jordan Store toms shoes outlet coach factory outlet online Uggs For Cheap ypMs 2017.3.21 |